Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 8
Aug. 28th, 2013 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
This story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13.
WARNING: This chapter features the big blowup. There is severe verbal abuse, vulgarity, a minor physical altercation, complicated and murky consent issues. It includes Bucky!whump and Tony!whump, and well, basically all the Avengers go whump! whump! whump! down the emotional staircase. If these are concerns for you, consider taking extra precautions; if you're in delicate space, consider waiting before you read this part. Things will get better later, of course, but this scene is the doooooom.
"Hide and Seek" Part 8
"Found him!" Bucky yelled. Phil whirled to see Bucky lifting Tony from a car. Relief flooded through him as he hurried toward them. "Tony got himself stuck in the trunk here and fell asleep."
"I was not stuck!" Tony said. He wormed his way free of Bucky's grasp and dropped to the ground. He stood stiffly out of reach. "There is no way to get stuck in the trunk of any car I own. They all have escape latches inside. Hidden tools, too."
Which Tony had added after an unpleasant kidnapping incident in his twenties; the phrasing and reference, coupled with the body language, meant that this was Tony Stark and not Tony Carter.
Relief turned to anger as Phil processed that Tony had carelessly fallen asleep and alarmed everyone for no good reason. He opened his mouth to start yelling -- then remembered Bruce, who was still clinging to him, and Tony, who did not need another round of verbal abuse. What they needed was a sense of safety even when things went wrong.
Phil closed his mouth, breathed slowly through his nose, and tried to dig up some patience. Game night is safe space. I need to keep my temper in check and --
"What were you thinking?" Bucky said, taking a step toward Tony.
"That it was a great hiding place, which it is," Tony said. He jerked his chin up and glared at Bucky. "What's the big deal?"
"You scared the crap out of us, you little punk!" Bucky snapped. He sounded like an irate teenager, age jinking upward in response to the stress.
Bruce flinched against Phil's side. "Bucky, that's not helping," Phil said. He tried to separate the two of them. "Calm down and let me deal with this."
"I ought to take a belt to you --" Bucky said, waving a hand at Tony.
"You fucking try it. I will break your arm too," Tony said coldly.
"No," Phil said in his firmest voice. Bruce skittered away. "No hitting."
"That's not hitting, it's perfectly ordinary punishment," Bucky scoffed. "He needs to show some respect --"
"Fuck you! You're not my father!" Tony screamed, shoving Bucky hard enough to rock him against the car.
That gave Phil a chance to wedge himself between them, but it was too late.
Just like that, Bruce was crying. Bucky was not only crying but would have run out of the room except for Phil's stern grip on him. Tony was furious and defensive, both hands held in front of himself. Phil didn't know which way to turn first.
Naturally that's when the rest of the Avengers poured into the garage to reassure themselves that Tony had been found safely. Black Widow demanded a situation report. Steve homed in on Bucky, who finally wrenched loose from Phil. Bucky buried his face in Steve's shoulder. Betty went to Bruce, only to find him skittish and resistant. She held off touching him and instead scowled at everyone. At least Hulk hadn't made an appearance. Amidst the uproar, Tony shook with tension.
"All right, who's the jerk that upset Bruce?" Hawkeye said.
"He is!" Tony and Bucky chorused, pointing at each other. That just set off another round of louder recriminations from everyone. No amount of calling for order helped.
Phil finally stalked to the wall of the garage and resorted to a last-ditch tactic for restoring peace.
"Hey! Why'd the lights go off? JARVIS!" Tony yelped.
"I turned them off," Phil said.
The ruckus gradually quieted down.
"Is anyone injured?" Phil asked, just to be safe.
A soft chorus of negatives sounded.
"Now, here's what is going to happen," Phil said as he turned the lights back on. "Tony, we're done playing hide and seek for tonight. Remove the block on your location so that JARVIS can find you."
Tony clapped his hands and said, "JARVIS, Daddy's home."
"It's good to have you back, sir," JARVIS replied, an edge in his voice. Tony's human family hadn't been the only ones worried about him.
"Are you just going to let him get away with --" Steve began.
"Stop," Phil said. "Everyone, just stop. We're all upset. Therefore now is not a good time to discuss what went wrong. We're going to go upstairs and watch something silly on television until we calm down. Then we'll go to bed. There will be time enough to deal with this tomorrow, with cooler heads."
Tony gave him a mulish look but said nothing. Hawkeye looked no better, and Black Widow was unreadable. Steve, still holding onto Bucky, was taut with anger. "Yes, sir," Steve said, biting off the ends of the words.
"Thank you," Phil said. Neither Bucky nor Bruce would meet Phil's eyes. Betty seemed calmer, though. "Bruce, are you settled enough to go with Betty, or do you still need me?"
"Betty," Bruce whispered. He moved close enough to clutch her tightly. Phil felt grateful that Bruce managed to hold onto his control, somehow -- or perhaps that Hulk trusted the team enough to let them handle the situation instead of bursting out to deal with it himself.
"All right then, I'll leave you to Betty while I stick with Tony," Phil said. Betty coaxed Bruce to the door. "Hawkeye, Black Widow, please go change clothes. I'll expect Clint and Natka in the common room shortly." They peeled off at once. Steve led Bucky out. Phil took Tony in hand.
"Let go," Tony said, twisting his wrist.
Phil moved with him to keep Tony from breaking the grip. "Tony, stop that," he said. "You dropped out of touch in a way that scared people, so I'm holding onto you for a while."
Dark, complex emotions roiled over Tony's face. Then they flowed away, leaving a mask almost as blank as Natasha's. "Whatever," Tony said.
"I know you're upset right now, because things went wrong and people hurt each other's feelings. You may not want to talk with me or be around me, but I'm too worried about you to let you run off alone," Phil said, watching carefully for a response. "I still care about you, even when you do troublesome things, and I'm here for you."
Tony just shrugged.
"Come with me," Phil said, and towed Tony back toward the common room.
* * *
Notes:
The ageplay goes to hash in this chapter, as several people lose their grip on their intended age and shift around. It doesn't help that even Tony's adult persona has some seriously childish traits. Under stress, people can have a hard time being consistent and focused about anything.
Recent cars must have an escape latch in the trunk. Older cars can be retrofitted with one. For the purpose of this series, I figure that Tony Stark was instrumental in those developments. There are tips for escaping from a car trunk and escaping from a kidnapper's car. Tony of course knows these too.
In this scene, Phil uses primarily assertive body language. Bucky's is more aggressive. Tony and Bruce are more defensive.
Everyone has to deal with rejection sometimes. There are tips on handling rejection yourself and helping a friend cope with it. Examples in this chapter include Tony pulling away from Bucky (which Bucky handles badly) and Bruce shying away from Betty (who is no more pleased, but responds better).
Naturally parents get angry with children sometimes. You can stop your anger from affecting your children and plan ahead for it. Learn how to get control of your emotions and how to handle your anger. There are tip sheets for anger management. If you stop yelling at your kids, you can learn some amazing things.
There are tips for kids too. Anger is an emotion that everyone needs to deal with in a healthy manner. Family fights can make this difficult. For healthy families, there are tips to tell your parents that you're angry with them or to get forgiveness after doing something stupid. For dysfunctional families, learn how to deal with mean parents, deal with a terrible dad, or cope with being unloved.
Adults can help children learn to manage their emotions and disagreements. Pay attention to levels and expressions of anger in children. Teach children to communicate. and work through conflicts. Some angry children may need extra help. Parents should follow rules for dealing with angry children, understand how to help them, and teach them to deal with anger.
Know how to calm down in a crisis. Breathing exercises may help. Phil and Bruce are particularly fond of that method.
Verbal abuse is also known as emotional or psychological abuse. It has recognizable characteristics and behaviors, so you can learn to identify it. Here are some examples and a checklist of signs. Ask yourself some important questions. Understand how verbal abuse affects children and what to do instead. Learn how to stop verbal abuse from both sides.
Emotional abuse in families may cause brain damage to children. Watch for signs of it. Witnessing verbal abuse between parents has a negative impact on children. Basically, children learn what they live; some learn to be mean, while others learn to be kind, depending on their environment. Think about what your children are learning from you. There are reasons why mean kids are so aggressive. Children can learn not to be cruel.
Verbal abuse hurts, and it can harm relationships with harsh words. There are things parents should never say to their children, things children should never say to their parents, and things nobody should say to anybody they care about.
Turning off the lights is a classic technique to quiet a classroom. It works on adults, if you are intending to imply that they are behaving like children.
Don't try to solve problems while you're angry. An upset person will not be able to think or communicate very clearly. When emotions run very high, it makes sense to wait for everyone to calm down before trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. This is an important principle of emotional first aid: stop the damage from getting worse, then think about repairs. Understand what not to say and do.
There are several ways to break a wrist hold, including this video demonstration. Tony knows this stuff. So does Phil, hence his response of moving with Tony to avoid the escape. You can see that Phil's aim is not physical restraint but rather emotional control. Tony's acquiescence is grudging, but at least an improvement over the recent mayhem. Tony can't feel it right now, but he needs Uncle Phil to act as a brace so that he doesn't flop around out of control.
Emotional suppression happens when people feel threatened. It's important to become aware of emotional suppression and to access your feelings. Tony's primary mode is effusive emotional expression; he prefers to turn most things outward. But he also has a very secretive side, and that's what comes out the more insecure he feels. When Tony shuts down like this, it's a serious warning sign. He's in his own garage with people he knows and they were just doing ageplay, and he still feels so unsafe that he's stuffing his emotions in a can.
Emotional armor can be difficult to undo. It's a combination of physical and mental tension that forms in response to negative experiences, in an effort to protect the self from further damage. There are ways to clear the emotional blocks and let go of the armor. Phil and Tony will be working on this later in the story.
There are ways to calm and comfort an upset child. Adults should also understand what not to do.
Like most of the Avengers, sometimes Tony has problems with impaired consent. Here is a good discussion about the spectrum of consent. When possible, Phil provides support and helps people make good decisions. But he's not willing to stand by and let anyone make the kind of bad decisions that could hurt themselves or others -- which movie canon is full of, like Tony driving a car or flying the suit while drunk.
And who gets the gold star for doing all the right things in a crummy situation? Bruce-and-Hulk. They're able to express emotions without triggering an involuntary transformation or having any other kind of destructive outburst. Crying is okay. Crying after you've spent most of your life stuffing your emotions is actually an accomplishment! Bruce-and-Hulk seek reassurance from safe people, until their hypersensitivity spikes too much, and then they pull back. As soon as it goes down, they seek comfort again, and find it. Comfort-seeking is a sign of secure attachment, which is not how they started. This is hard to see through the smouldering haze of doom, and it doesn't feel good, but they actually did a great job.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13.
WARNING: This chapter features the big blowup. There is severe verbal abuse, vulgarity, a minor physical altercation, complicated and murky consent issues. It includes Bucky!whump and Tony!whump, and well, basically all the Avengers go whump! whump! whump! down the emotional staircase. If these are concerns for you, consider taking extra precautions; if you're in delicate space, consider waiting before you read this part. Things will get better later, of course, but this scene is the doooooom.
"Hide and Seek" Part 8
"Found him!" Bucky yelled. Phil whirled to see Bucky lifting Tony from a car. Relief flooded through him as he hurried toward them. "Tony got himself stuck in the trunk here and fell asleep."
"I was not stuck!" Tony said. He wormed his way free of Bucky's grasp and dropped to the ground. He stood stiffly out of reach. "There is no way to get stuck in the trunk of any car I own. They all have escape latches inside. Hidden tools, too."
Which Tony had added after an unpleasant kidnapping incident in his twenties; the phrasing and reference, coupled with the body language, meant that this was Tony Stark and not Tony Carter.
Relief turned to anger as Phil processed that Tony had carelessly fallen asleep and alarmed everyone for no good reason. He opened his mouth to start yelling -- then remembered Bruce, who was still clinging to him, and Tony, who did not need another round of verbal abuse. What they needed was a sense of safety even when things went wrong.
Phil closed his mouth, breathed slowly through his nose, and tried to dig up some patience. Game night is safe space. I need to keep my temper in check and --
"What were you thinking?" Bucky said, taking a step toward Tony.
"That it was a great hiding place, which it is," Tony said. He jerked his chin up and glared at Bucky. "What's the big deal?"
"You scared the crap out of us, you little punk!" Bucky snapped. He sounded like an irate teenager, age jinking upward in response to the stress.
Bruce flinched against Phil's side. "Bucky, that's not helping," Phil said. He tried to separate the two of them. "Calm down and let me deal with this."
"I ought to take a belt to you --" Bucky said, waving a hand at Tony.
"You fucking try it. I will break your arm too," Tony said coldly.
"No," Phil said in his firmest voice. Bruce skittered away. "No hitting."
"That's not hitting, it's perfectly ordinary punishment," Bucky scoffed. "He needs to show some respect --"
"Fuck you! You're not my father!" Tony screamed, shoving Bucky hard enough to rock him against the car.
That gave Phil a chance to wedge himself between them, but it was too late.
Just like that, Bruce was crying. Bucky was not only crying but would have run out of the room except for Phil's stern grip on him. Tony was furious and defensive, both hands held in front of himself. Phil didn't know which way to turn first.
Naturally that's when the rest of the Avengers poured into the garage to reassure themselves that Tony had been found safely. Black Widow demanded a situation report. Steve homed in on Bucky, who finally wrenched loose from Phil. Bucky buried his face in Steve's shoulder. Betty went to Bruce, only to find him skittish and resistant. She held off touching him and instead scowled at everyone. At least Hulk hadn't made an appearance. Amidst the uproar, Tony shook with tension.
"All right, who's the jerk that upset Bruce?" Hawkeye said.
"He is!" Tony and Bucky chorused, pointing at each other. That just set off another round of louder recriminations from everyone. No amount of calling for order helped.
Phil finally stalked to the wall of the garage and resorted to a last-ditch tactic for restoring peace.
"Hey! Why'd the lights go off? JARVIS!" Tony yelped.
"I turned them off," Phil said.
The ruckus gradually quieted down.
"Is anyone injured?" Phil asked, just to be safe.
A soft chorus of negatives sounded.
"Now, here's what is going to happen," Phil said as he turned the lights back on. "Tony, we're done playing hide and seek for tonight. Remove the block on your location so that JARVIS can find you."
Tony clapped his hands and said, "JARVIS, Daddy's home."
"It's good to have you back, sir," JARVIS replied, an edge in his voice. Tony's human family hadn't been the only ones worried about him.
"Are you just going to let him get away with --" Steve began.
"Stop," Phil said. "Everyone, just stop. We're all upset. Therefore now is not a good time to discuss what went wrong. We're going to go upstairs and watch something silly on television until we calm down. Then we'll go to bed. There will be time enough to deal with this tomorrow, with cooler heads."
Tony gave him a mulish look but said nothing. Hawkeye looked no better, and Black Widow was unreadable. Steve, still holding onto Bucky, was taut with anger. "Yes, sir," Steve said, biting off the ends of the words.
"Thank you," Phil said. Neither Bucky nor Bruce would meet Phil's eyes. Betty seemed calmer, though. "Bruce, are you settled enough to go with Betty, or do you still need me?"
"Betty," Bruce whispered. He moved close enough to clutch her tightly. Phil felt grateful that Bruce managed to hold onto his control, somehow -- or perhaps that Hulk trusted the team enough to let them handle the situation instead of bursting out to deal with it himself.
"All right then, I'll leave you to Betty while I stick with Tony," Phil said. Betty coaxed Bruce to the door. "Hawkeye, Black Widow, please go change clothes. I'll expect Clint and Natka in the common room shortly." They peeled off at once. Steve led Bucky out. Phil took Tony in hand.
"Let go," Tony said, twisting his wrist.
Phil moved with him to keep Tony from breaking the grip. "Tony, stop that," he said. "You dropped out of touch in a way that scared people, so I'm holding onto you for a while."
Dark, complex emotions roiled over Tony's face. Then they flowed away, leaving a mask almost as blank as Natasha's. "Whatever," Tony said.
"I know you're upset right now, because things went wrong and people hurt each other's feelings. You may not want to talk with me or be around me, but I'm too worried about you to let you run off alone," Phil said, watching carefully for a response. "I still care about you, even when you do troublesome things, and I'm here for you."
Tony just shrugged.
"Come with me," Phil said, and towed Tony back toward the common room.
* * *
Notes:
The ageplay goes to hash in this chapter, as several people lose their grip on their intended age and shift around. It doesn't help that even Tony's adult persona has some seriously childish traits. Under stress, people can have a hard time being consistent and focused about anything.
Recent cars must have an escape latch in the trunk. Older cars can be retrofitted with one. For the purpose of this series, I figure that Tony Stark was instrumental in those developments. There are tips for escaping from a car trunk and escaping from a kidnapper's car. Tony of course knows these too.
In this scene, Phil uses primarily assertive body language. Bucky's is more aggressive. Tony and Bruce are more defensive.
Everyone has to deal with rejection sometimes. There are tips on handling rejection yourself and helping a friend cope with it. Examples in this chapter include Tony pulling away from Bucky (which Bucky handles badly) and Bruce shying away from Betty (who is no more pleased, but responds better).
Naturally parents get angry with children sometimes. You can stop your anger from affecting your children and plan ahead for it. Learn how to get control of your emotions and how to handle your anger. There are tip sheets for anger management. If you stop yelling at your kids, you can learn some amazing things.
There are tips for kids too. Anger is an emotion that everyone needs to deal with in a healthy manner. Family fights can make this difficult. For healthy families, there are tips to tell your parents that you're angry with them or to get forgiveness after doing something stupid. For dysfunctional families, learn how to deal with mean parents, deal with a terrible dad, or cope with being unloved.
Adults can help children learn to manage their emotions and disagreements. Pay attention to levels and expressions of anger in children. Teach children to communicate. and work through conflicts. Some angry children may need extra help. Parents should follow rules for dealing with angry children, understand how to help them, and teach them to deal with anger.
Know how to calm down in a crisis. Breathing exercises may help. Phil and Bruce are particularly fond of that method.
Verbal abuse is also known as emotional or psychological abuse. It has recognizable characteristics and behaviors, so you can learn to identify it. Here are some examples and a checklist of signs. Ask yourself some important questions. Understand how verbal abuse affects children and what to do instead. Learn how to stop verbal abuse from both sides.
Emotional abuse in families may cause brain damage to children. Watch for signs of it. Witnessing verbal abuse between parents has a negative impact on children. Basically, children learn what they live; some learn to be mean, while others learn to be kind, depending on their environment. Think about what your children are learning from you. There are reasons why mean kids are so aggressive. Children can learn not to be cruel.
Verbal abuse hurts, and it can harm relationships with harsh words. There are things parents should never say to their children, things children should never say to their parents, and things nobody should say to anybody they care about.
Turning off the lights is a classic technique to quiet a classroom. It works on adults, if you are intending to imply that they are behaving like children.
Don't try to solve problems while you're angry. An upset person will not be able to think or communicate very clearly. When emotions run very high, it makes sense to wait for everyone to calm down before trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. This is an important principle of emotional first aid: stop the damage from getting worse, then think about repairs. Understand what not to say and do.
There are several ways to break a wrist hold, including this video demonstration. Tony knows this stuff. So does Phil, hence his response of moving with Tony to avoid the escape. You can see that Phil's aim is not physical restraint but rather emotional control. Tony's acquiescence is grudging, but at least an improvement over the recent mayhem. Tony can't feel it right now, but he needs Uncle Phil to act as a brace so that he doesn't flop around out of control.
Emotional suppression happens when people feel threatened. It's important to become aware of emotional suppression and to access your feelings. Tony's primary mode is effusive emotional expression; he prefers to turn most things outward. But he also has a very secretive side, and that's what comes out the more insecure he feels. When Tony shuts down like this, it's a serious warning sign. He's in his own garage with people he knows and they were just doing ageplay, and he still feels so unsafe that he's stuffing his emotions in a can.
Emotional armor can be difficult to undo. It's a combination of physical and mental tension that forms in response to negative experiences, in an effort to protect the self from further damage. There are ways to clear the emotional blocks and let go of the armor. Phil and Tony will be working on this later in the story.
There are ways to calm and comfort an upset child. Adults should also understand what not to do.
Like most of the Avengers, sometimes Tony has problems with impaired consent. Here is a good discussion about the spectrum of consent. When possible, Phil provides support and helps people make good decisions. But he's not willing to stand by and let anyone make the kind of bad decisions that could hurt themselves or others -- which movie canon is full of, like Tony driving a car or flying the suit while drunk.
And who gets the gold star for doing all the right things in a crummy situation? Bruce-and-Hulk. They're able to express emotions without triggering an involuntary transformation or having any other kind of destructive outburst. Crying is okay. Crying after you've spent most of your life stuffing your emotions is actually an accomplishment! Bruce-and-Hulk seek reassurance from safe people, until their hypersensitivity spikes too much, and then they pull back. As soon as it goes down, they seek comfort again, and find it. Comfort-seeking is a sign of secure attachment, which is not how they started. This is hard to see through the smouldering haze of doom, and it doesn't feel good, but they actually did a great job.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-11-09 06:00 am (UTC)I'm chronically ill and subsequently disabled. I have a hard time eating, walking, and bathing sometimes. I'm also way too stubborn for my own good. I'll want to do something (even something pretty boring like clean the bathroom) and be willing to push way past my limits leaving me in pain and sick and potentially stuck in bed. But because I struggle with my self worth and place in the house now that I'm disabled (which is all on me, I'm very lucky and have a extremely supportive environment), I'm willing to push myself that far even though I know it's a bad idea.
Sometimes I need a friend or family member to get me to stop because I'm not in the right mindset to do it for myself. And that's what Phil holding onto Tony felt like to me. Like Tony wasn't in a place to be making fully informed decisions about what's best for him, so Phil stepped up. You mentioned in earlier comments, and I agree, that Tony would have gotten away from Phil if he really anted to or felt threatened. Instead he whined. I can totally relate to that, sometimes you need to kick up a fuss just so you can be reassured that it doesn't matter. To me it felt like Tony testing how committed Phil was to taking care of him. People test because they need/desire proof that there is actually something there to stop them from falling. Things can feel very unpleasant even with the knowledge that it's for the best. I think this is Tony recognizing that.
tl;dr I think Phil made the right call speaking as someone who's had similar situations happen to her because my ability for self-care wasn't high enough at the particular moment.
(I wrote all of this out on my phone and then accidentally left the page losing my comment. Like a sane person I hopped on the computer real fast a retyped it. If anything of this doesn't make sense let me know, I'm on a lot of nighttime meds at the moment. I'm happy to clarify if I'm not being clear.)
Thoughts
Date: 2013-11-09 07:17 am (UTC)Yes, I'm pleased that my audience usually manages to keep their cool, even when discussing controversial topics. I try to encourage that.
>> I've been thinking about this scene and Tony and Phil's actions a lot for the past couple of hours and I wanted to share my thoughts. <<
I love it when my writing makes people think, especially when they post about it. Yay, feedback!
>> I'm chronically ill and subsequently disabled. I have a hard time eating, walking, and bathing sometimes. <<
Bummer. I have a fair number of disabled readers here, and in some of my other series -- I write about characters with handicaps fairly often. I find it very helpful when folks share their experiences; sometimes that weaves its way into new material.
>> I'm also way too stubborn for my own good. I'll want to do something (even something pretty boring like clean the bathroom) and be willing to push way past my limits leaving me in pain and sick and potentially stuck in bed. <<
I know how it goes. My body has its quirks, some of which are pesky to work around. It sucks to push past that kind of boundary and then go splat.
>> But because I struggle with my self worth and place in the house now that I'm disabled (which is all on me, I'm very lucky and have a extremely supportive environment), I'm willing to push myself that far even though I know it's a bad idea. <<
I think that's something each person has to figure out on their own. It's your body, your mind, your life. You're the only one who can decide if the physical distress of pushing too far is worse, or if the mental distress of feeling useless is worse. Same with possible solutions, nobody else can tell what works for you or doesn't. But they can offer ideas and support.
This is a huge issue for some of the Avengers. Right now, Bucky has the worst problems with self-worth due to disability, because he's not ready to go back in the field yet so he feels useless. Tony still has it in his head that he needs to justify his right to keep living. Steve and Bruce sometimes get into a similar mindset, too, though for different reasons.
It helps that the whole teamfamily is determined to look after each other, though. They are learning everyone's strengths and weaknesses so they can compensate for those. Nobody has to do it alone.
>> Sometimes I need a friend or family member to get me to stop because I'm not in the right mindset to do it for myself. <<
Sooth. I think everyone needs that sometimes -- if you're exhausted, sick, injured, emotionally overloaded, etc. then you may not be thinking clearly. People with a chronic physical or mental condition may run into this more often.
Easy to forget with Tony because he hides it as best he can, but his chest isn't in perfect working order and he's got PTSD symptoms. The problem drinking is more obvious. His habit of running himself off the rails is very canonical.
>> And that's what Phil holding onto Tony felt like to me. Like Tony wasn't in a place to be making fully informed decisions about what's best for him, so Phil stepped up. <<
I'm glad this came through clearly for you. It may be that people interpret the scene differently based on their own experiences. "We see the world not as it is, but as we are."
>>You mentioned in earlier comments, and I agree, that Tony would have gotten away from Phil if he really wanted to or felt threatened. Instead he whined. I can totally relate to that, sometimes you need to kick up a fuss just so you can be reassured that it doesn't matter.<<
Exactly. For Tony, it's really difficult to deal with his limits. His whole identity is based on a headlong rush. Caution often feels wrong to him, so he tends to complain over it. But that's not the same thing as when something makes him feel threatened.
>> To me it felt like Tony testing how committed Phil was to taking care of him. People test because they need/desire proof that there is actually something there to stop them from falling. <<
You just put your finger on one of the main things that Tony gets out of ageplay, and he started doing it with Phil the moment they met. Phil almost the only person who stands up to Tony when Tony tries to do something stupid or dangerous. Tony needs safe limits because he didn't get that growing up. It's the emotional equivalent of leaning into a safety rail to make sure it won't budge.
>> Things can feel very unpleasant even with the knowledge that it's for the best. I think this is Tony recognizing that. <<
Very true. What Phil did was beneficial, but no fun for anybody. Later on they talk about ways to maintain safety with less discomfort.
>> tl;dr I think Phil made the right call speaking as someone who's had similar situations happen to her because my ability for self-care wasn't high enough at the particular moment. <<
Thanks. I really appreciate that perspective.
For me, I have hard and soft limits. There are some things where I rely on people around me to say when I need to stop, if it's something I have a difficult time identifying the limit myself. There are some things where I can tell, but we don't always make the same call, and people who care about me will argue over what's enough or too much. Then there are things where I require people to leave me alone, no matter how much they want to get involved -- things that are dealbreakers for me, and I've lost a few friendships because people just couldn't abide by that. People have varying ideas about what kind and how much help they are willing to give or receive, or hold back. Relationships are about finding ways to balance both people's needs.
>> (I wrote all of this out on my phone and then accidentally left the page losing my comment. Like a sane person I hopped on the computer real fast a retyped it. If anything of this doesn't make sense let me know, I'm on a lot of nighttime meds at the moment. I'm happy to clarify if I'm not being clear.) <<
It sounds clear to me. Thanks for taking the time to write all this out!
I hope you enjoy the rest of the story. There is a lot of talking later as Phil, Tony, and Bucky work through what happened and try to figure out how to prevent various aspects from recurring.