The Wordsmith's Forge

>> Oh, wow. That was... intense. <<

All the hurty hurtness in this chapter, yeah.

>> Of course Bucky would think of taking the belt to someone as perfectly ordinary punishment. Steve probably does, too. <<

Precisely. No matter how hard you try to fill in the culture gaps, there is no way to fix a 70-year breach in a few months. You are just going to step on some landmines like this.

>> Heck, they more than likely both got the belt as kids even though they actually had good parents. (Well, Steve's mom at least. I don't know anything about Bucky's parents.) <<

If not from their parents, certainly at the orphanage.

>> Come to think of it, all the Avengers are of a generation where when they were little, spanking was still considered normal more often than not... <<

Except none of them had normal families so that's no benchmark. They can't even identify what's ordinary behavior with reliable accuracy, because they haven't seen much of it.

>> Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much the worst thing Bucky could have said at that point. <<

Well, "I ought to drown you like a stray cat!" might have topped it -- which is an established thing some abusive parents say -- but what Bucky said was still waaayyy out of line.

>> Tony clearly didn't mean to scare his friends, and if it had been explained to him calmly I'm sure he'd have felt contrite, <<

Poor Tony has no ever-living clue why his friends are so upset. This takes pages of unpacking later in the story. He honestly didn't mean to cause a problem though; it wasn't a deliberate prank. But given his scapegoat traits, it may well have been a subconscious action -- when stress builds up, a scapegoat releases the pressure by getting into trouble. And that's not a role that's easy to break even after leaving the dysfunctional family that created it.

>> but the physical threat put him in full defense mode. <<

Yep. Palms-forward is an attack position for Tony, not a purely defensive gesture as it is for most.

>> And it's especially unfortunate that this had to happen in front of Bruce. <<

Unfortunate, yes, because it scared the heck out of him. Despite that, Bruce actually handled the stress in a much more effective manner than he has in the past. He was really upset, but: he didn't Hulk out, he was confident that people would protect him, and he was even able to seek out comfort once his sensory issues settled down. So that's great progress.

>> Kudos to Phil for getting control back, but I don't expect the rest of the night, or the next day, to be particularly comfortable. <<

Days, plural. It's not a quick fix, as much emotional mayhem as this brought up.

>> (Hey, does this mean they'll still be little the next day?) <<

No, although there is more ageplay later in the story.

>> Kudos also to Steve, Nat and Clint for falling in line when they (especially Steve and Clint) clearly didn't want to. Thank god they were willing to take a leap of faith and let Phil sort it. <<

They are learning that Phil has epic people skills and problem-solving ability. Everyone on the team has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. For most of the Avengers, social stuff is a weak point. (Steve, Bucky, and Betty have varying degrees of it but none of them have Phil's sheer depth of experience -- and Bucky botched his attempt.) In a team, it's important to know what people do well, so you can switch off fluently and put your most skilled member on the problem at hand. This is counterbalanced by the fact that most of the Avengers learned the hard way that they had to solve every problem themselves because nobody would help. Learning to step back and let Phil resolve people problems takes as much trust and practice as following Steve's strategies in battle or letting Tony deal with financial issues.

At least with most of the team following Phil's lead, that reduced the mess to something he could handle.

*ponder* So far everyone's been focusing on the consent issues with Tony -- which were the most dramatic -- but he's not the only one who wouldn't mind. Bucky, Hawkeye, and Steve all balked in different ways. Even Betty was glaring, and Black Widow was in a demanding mode rather than an accepting mode for a while. I think the only ones who showed zero resistance were Bruce-and-Hulk. Voice wasn't enough; Phil actually had to go shut the lights off before they'd quit fussing and mind him. Hawkeye and Steve were still pretty headstrong about it. But in the end Phil was able to get everyone into the common room and start them calming down.

Sometimes trust is about going along with someone else's idea when you don't want to, but you do it anyway because historically speaking their ideas tend to work.

>> That chapter reminded me that while Tony is awesome, he's also a very complicated man and not an easy person to be around... <<

In canon, Tony is an asshole. He's just so useful on technical merit that people overlook it for the sake of getting his goods and/or his help. But he has almost no friends, and his lack of people skills is why.

In this series, Tony is trying to do better, but it takes time to learn how. And how do you get experience? By making mistakes. One of those was pushing himself too far, too long and not taking enough time to recharge -- just as some readers have been worrying about.

>> Intense chapter, I could feel the nerves and anger vibrating! <<

I'm glad you found this so powerful.

>> Thanks for sharing - good luck to Phil with the aftermath... <<

There are a lot of aftermath stages, some of which go more smoothly than others. But Phil is doing his best to fix what's broken.

>> "You fucking try it. I will break your arm too," Tony said coldly.

Shit. Obviously, we knew that Howard wasn't much of a parent, but I was holding out hope that it was "only" neglect/emotional abuse until the last few chapters. <<

I figure, most of the time Howard ignored Tony, but occasionally did other things -- a chaotic jumble of praise, condemnation, and drunken attacks. Not to mention going on and on about the virtues of Captain America and the importance of Stark Industries. Thing is, most drunks will hit at least sometimes ...

>> And while breaking someone's arm isn't exactly a healthy response, I'm still pleased to know that Tony got the chance to fight back. <<

... and eventually, a fair number of boys will hit back, usually in their teens. Consider that Tony's parents sent him off to college by himself in his mid-teens. This did not help him learn good life skills, but it did get him and Howard out of reach. Obviously they didn't want a child abuse scandal, so Howard could hardly admit what happened.

That's probably not the only time Tony has broken somebody's arm for assaulting him, either.

>> Lord, this really does manage to kick everyone in their respective issues, doesn't it? <<

It really does. This is about on par with what Tony and Steve did to each other when they first met. In some regards, Tony is like Clint: the target lights up and he takes the shot. He doesn't have a good enough brain-to-mouth filter to stop and think, "Wait, friendly fire isn't." That's what happened with Steve. With Bucky here, Tony was responding less to him as an individual and more to the inadvertent similarity to some of Tony's worst memories. Flashback-filtered conversation with Tony is like holding a match to a can of hairspray.

>> Poor Phil--I wouldn't even know where to start sorting it all out. <<

At this stage, Phil is pretty much focused on damage control. Figuring out what went wrong and how to fix it all will take a lot longer.

>> On the other hand, Tony and Bucky blaming each other for upsetting Bruce was kinda funny--it was such a brotherly way of fighting! I appreciated the lighter moment in the midst of all the dooooom. <<

*chuckle* Yeah, their age presentation was all over the place.

>> Wow! There is so much going on here I'm not sure I can wrap my head around it. <<

Well, none of the characters have much idea what happened, either.

>> Bucky managed to stomp hard on not only Tony's issues, but several of mine. (I went into it knowing it might, and it's not more than I can handle, but there was a long minute of Whoa!) <<

Sorry about that. Yeah, Bucky had on his stompin' boots that night.

>> There is undoubtedly a LOT to sort out here, but it seems to me that a big one is that Bucky is NOT that 'parent' here. Uncle Phil is, and while Phil might have consent to discipline Tony, Bucky doesn't. <<

That's a big part of it. Tony's response to Phil may have been murky, but he sure gave Bucky a clear "hell no."

>> It's understandable because Bucky sees them all as his 'little brothers' in a way, and as a teenager he probably would have given Steve a whippin' for a stunt like that. He's tapping into that headspace, but he's not the parent anymore. <<

That part is Bucky's parentification showing. It's easy to activate and very difficult to deactivate. He just doesn't have that much control over it yet. I think this is the first time the "big brother" effect has been a serious disadvantage, rather than an advantage, within the team. But Steve used to hackle about it, too, that's actually in the movie. Bucky was more protective of Steve than Steve was comfortable with, but Bucky wasn't willing to stand back and let him get beaten maybe to death.

Bucky's misappropriation of authority also made it harder for Tony to yield to Phil. It's hard to relax right after you've been hit.

>> I don't understand why Bucky thinks he has the right to threaten a punishment of any kind. <<

Take a look at the other comments for some good guesses.

>> They're grown adults. Yes, they're playing little, but that still doesn't give him the authority to punish Tony. <<

Authority, no; idea, yes. Bucky customarily plays older than Tony.

>>I'm sure you'll be exploring that in later chapters, so I look forward to it.<<

Yes, it does come up in the lengthy followup.

Yeah, it's a bumpy ride. There will be comfort and working things out later, though.

>> You managed to get an emotional response out of me, <<

I'm glad it worked for you!

>> where I empathized with one character so much that I don't feel I could defend my opinion without sounding like an emotionally broken jerk. <<

0_o But that's not really the response I was going for. It's up to you whether to share an opinion or not, but you don't have to defend it. And based on the audience chatter, there's a lot of scratch-and-dent folks reading this story.

>> (Okay. So everyone has their emotional broken jerk moments; doesn't make me happier about mine.) <<

*hugs available*

>> I think that's a congratulations... even if I still kinda hope Hulk shows up, angry or no, because I like and empathize with Hulk a lot. <<

Not yet, but I think some of his growing emotional intelligence is getting through to Bruce, because despite the mayhem Bruce actually managed to reach out to people instead of losing his shit like Tony and Bucky did.

There will be more Hulk eventually, though. I have an idea for him in the next story, which is mostly Bucky's, but there are continuing threads of Bruce-and-Hulk too.

>> Wow. Yeah, if these were my kids, I'd be coming down hard on Bucky. <<

Bucky does have reasons for his behavior; he's not being randomly malicious. He still needs to learn that this stuff is not okay, though.

>>Probably very loudly. Except for, well, it would upset Bruce. And Steve.<<

Yelling only helps if you need to get someone's attention. It does not make your argument any more convincing.

*ponder* Come to think of it, Phil just isn't the kind of guy who expresses authority through volume and posturing. He's very quiet and very subtle. Real power usually is.

>> I actually have had set-tos with my father-in-law over spanking; he's the age that Bucky and Steve would be if it hadn't been for the time gap and the supersoldier serum. Husband says that a belt was in fact used when he was little. <<

O_O Not good, no.

Normative abuse is an issue -- things people do, or did, that are considered ordinary and okay, but still cause problems. As far as Bucky is concerned, hitting someone with a belt is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. The only example of nonviolent discipline that he's seen is Phil, and Bucky doesn't really understand how that works yet.

>> I'm definitely enjoying this story so far. <<

Yay! I'm pleased to hear that.

>> Yikes, Bucky's reaction in this chapter! <<

Yes, he and Tony really mangled each other.

>> Bits of it I can very much relate to, but please tell me somebody clues him in about attitudes regarding corporal punishment in the twenty-first century? Because daaaaamn. :( <<

That is a very necessary discussion. Both Steve and Bucky have had some cultural catch-up but there's just no way to cram in everything at once -- and Bucky's memory is a sieve right now.

>> I have to admit, Phil/Uncle Phil keeping hold of Tony's wrist when specifically told to let go, whether that was by little or aged-up Tony, unsettled me quite a bit. <<

Sorry about that. It's there for a reason, though.

>> I know it wasn't intended so, but it read like a well-meant stumble into a consent issue. There's knowing what someone needs and when, and then there's deliberately ignoring what could do more mental harm than good. This felt like the latter. <<

It's not entirely a safe thing to do, and while it's tinted by the ageplay, it's not entirely that either. But it's less harmful than some of the other alternatives.

Consider that Tony just lost his shit both verbally and physically. Phil doesn't feel safe letting Tony out of immediate reach right now, because he worries about Tony doing something wildly destructive to himself, someone else, or whatever is in reach. This isn't an unfounded concern; Tony has previously gotten blind drunk, smashed his lab, set fires, crashed into things, and ripped gaping emotional wounds into his nearest and dearest. Tony isn't clear-headed enough to be fully responsible for his own actions right now, so Phil is applying damage control. While Tony's obedience is sullen at best for the moment, Phil is building on a foundation of established trust between them.

>> I can't entirely tell if Tony going emotionally blank is positive or negative here, given what he was heading toward immediately prior, <<

Both. Shutting down is primarily a negative reaction. Tony doesn't do it often, but he's got kind of an autopilot for when the thinking part of his brain short-circuits. The amount of emotional information and flux exceeded his processing capacity.

Part of what caused that is Tony tends to withdraw when he feels awful. In that state, he then tends to get drunk, break things, hurt himself, and feel like a lonely piece of shit. He's not used to someone who won't let him do that and he does not really know how to respond.

Which brings us to the positive side, which Tony hasn't recognized yet: that someone cares enough to hang on and stay with him even when he's being snotty and trying to push them away. (Tony has spent most of his life pushing people away, and sometimes he means it, but sometimes he doesn't, and much of time it's a jumble of both.) He's also thinking about his teenage years because that's when the mess with Howard got really bad, and also when Howard died. But Phil also provides Tony with a kind of emotional brace that nobody else has ever managed to do, and Tony needs that. While Tony's misbehavior here isn't the kind of deliberate testing and attention-seeking he sometimes uses, it does fill the same need for firm loving control.

So part of Tony wants to pull away like he usually does, which is why he tells Phil to let go. But underneath the current upset, he does still trust Phil, and he secretly wants people to care about him and pay attention to him -- even if the attention is unpleasant. That's why Tony stops struggling, even though he's not altogether accepting either. Mixed internal feelings generate a mixed external response and jam his ability to think and process his emotions.

>> but though Phil's verbal response might have helped the issue, <<

It was at least enough to quell the physical struggling. If Tony was whole-heartedly against the contact, he could have either argued his way out rationally (except he's not really rational right now) or thrashed his way out physically (Phil would probably have let him go and called the team for backup). There's a limit to how far Phil is willing to push Tony, but also a limit to how much he'll let Tony get away with. Phil has seen what happens when Tony goes off the rails, and it's really ugly.

>> the physical one... felt damaging from here. Yes, Uncle Phil is supposed to know what the kids need, but even without the blurry age lines in this chapter... That just felt a little heavy-handed, if not literally. <<

It is a little heavy-handed. It may leave some emotional bruises for a little while. But it's better than having to take Tony to the emergency room, which is a credible threat here.

Part of this explanation -- Phil's worry over Tony, and assorted attempts to reconnect with him -- appears in the next chapter. I didn't want to leave you hanging that long though. Part of it they'll have to talk out later, when they're both recovered enough to troubleshoot the situation.

>> I well admit I'm projecting like a movie screen here, and I swear I'm not critiquing just to critique.

... :)? <<

I appreciate the feedback. I want my stories to make people think.

For what it's worth, I once had to prevent someone from jumping out of a moving car. What I did was extremely domineering -- even though I actually had blanket permission to take over like that -- but it was better than having someone bail and get hurt. That kind of thing is always a gamble, but there are times when it's justified. And sometimes there are situations rough enough that there's no easy, polite answer.

>> That was a great chapter, if sad for me to read. <<

Thanks! I'm glad you found it so powerful.

>> I was really enjoying how Tony and Bucky were making a connection, but things were bound to take a difficult turn given their different personalities and backgrounds. <<

Precisely. They have a real push-pull thing going on, which is hard on a relationship. They're great when they're working smoothly and hellish when they're not.

>> Bucky's threat of physical violence was hard to take, <<

Very.

>> but I was actually more shocked by Tony's threat that he would break Bucky's arm. <<

Yeah, that sucked.

>> Did he realize that that kind of threat would mean something entirely different in Bucky's case? <<

No. Tony wasn't thinking clearly, for a lot of different reasons. This will come out over the course of later discussions.

>> Will Bucky trust anyone with his bionic arm now? <<

That's something for Bucky and Tony to work out as best they can. Tony wasn't thinking, but it still hurts.

>> I keep thinking about the continued damage that the power source is doing to him! <<

It's a key reason why Bucky lost his temper so outrageously. The damn thing is a decompensation engine.

>>Obviously, what Tony should have done<<

Obvious to us, but we don't share Tony's particular damage, which has left him a) trust-impaired and b) damage-blind in ways that sometimes wreak havoc.

>> and what I'm surprised JARVIS couldn't do on his own <<

He could. But that's not what Tony wanted, and while JARVIS will argue with Tony to protect Tony's safety, he's rarely inclined to deny Tony access to his own code. That's an enmeshment problem: they're both up inside each other so much that they feel almost like part of each other. And neither of them had good boundaries before that.

>> is to distinguish between "Stevie/Natka/Uncle Phil want to cheat" and "the Avengers want to know where you are and have suspended Game Night". <<

That would've been a lot safer.

>> The other mistake was solely on JARVIS: insufficient volume in calling off the game. <<

There's a limit to how loud you can blare an announcement before it causes problems or people think something's wrong. This is Tony, who plays rock music at ear-splitting levels while working; and he's a heavy sleeper, so once he's out, he's out. It can be hard to wake him. Yes, this is a nuisance sometimes. I'm not inclined to blame JARVIS for this part. *ponder* He might have tried a fire drill before calling the police if they hadn't found Tony, though. That might well have been loud enough.

>> The next mistake was Bucky's, whom we can cut some slack given his condition right now. <<

There's also more going on than just his PTSD and the power source. That will come up later.

>> It's not worth blaming him, per se, but he did something wrong: he blamed Tony's choice of hiding place (which was fine; the mistake was in JARVIS's instructions). He also acted angry. That's rarely useful, especially given that his anger is misplaced and excessive (but, of course, his power source...). <<

Letting anger speak for you is usually an ineffective problem-solving strategy. But it is an absolutely human reaction to want to scream at someone who has scared you half to death by doing something stupid or thoughtless. Sometimes people can resist that urge; sometimes they can't. Bucky lost his temper, which hurt Tony, and they'll have to work it out.

>> The next couple of mistakes are also Bucky's: he called Tony a name (punk), and then said he ought to take a belt to him. He threatened violent vengeance for an oversight in designing a game. <<

Yep. Bad ideas.

>> Then he backs it up by making statements that imply that Bucky is Tony's parent or should have parental authority over Tony. <<

Bucky has a parentification problem. (If you've seen the Captain America movie, Steve was pissed at Bucky for intervening in a fight that Steve was obviously losing, because Bucky was always protecting him and that gave Steve conflicted feelings.) That's hard to turn off, especially around adults who behave in childish ways. Hence the prevalence of codependent relationships. Bucky and Tony have the advantage of being in a situation where other folks can help them work through clashes like this, but they're just going to jam up sometimes. You can't handwave away habits that took years to form, even once you know they're giving you bad data. You have to reprogram the whole interaction process one fuckup at a time.

>> At this point, Tony should have walked away without saying anything. He didn't. Instead, Tony resorts to violence and shouting. <<

Tony wasn't thinking clearly either, for reasons that will eventually come out in later conversations. But there's one folks should already know: that he's been holding out and being good so much that he's run out of spoons for doing that. Clobber someone in the issues when they're out of spoons, and *SNAP*. And that's Tony with a lousy sense of self-preservation and no boundary sense. He often can't tell when he should say yes or no to things, or how to stop and take a break, or ask for help when he needs it.

>> (Why did Bucky start crying, by the way?) <<

Part of it was sheer emotional overload and whiplash from going through different emotions, like worry and anger and fear. Both PTSD and the energy source can magnify negative emotions in general and get people stuck in weird headspace. But the straw that broke the camel's back was Tony threatening to break his arm ... and then taking a verbal argument physical with that shove. It took a few moments for the threat to sink in, but once it did, *crash tinkle* broken Bucky.

Which is fortunate because if he'd hit back they probably both would've ended up in the tower clinic.

>> I'm not sure whether Phil was right to try to keep Bucky there. <<

It's arguable, but having people scatter in the midst of a conflict makes it harder to resolve. If they're not thinking clearly, they may run off heedless of safety and get hurt -- even something as simple as tripping over a table or falling down the stairs. Once things are this het-up there is no perfectly safe option; anything you do has a risk of upsetting people further or letting something else go wrong. You have to make your best guess of the least risky option. Sometimes you'll guess right, sometimes wrong, that's life.

>> However, he should not have touched Tony at all, let alone grabbed him. Having done that, he should have released Tony as soon as Tony tried to pull away. <<

Which would very shortly have resulted in an upset Tony holing up somewhere with power tools, and probably getting drunk, and possibly setting some part of the tower on fire. Tony's done that kind of stuff, repeatedly. He has a horrible track record of causing trouble when he's upset, and he's not always the only one who gets hurt. Phil and Natasha (as Natalie Rushman) have had to deal with that before, and really don't want to go there again.

What Phil did wasn't polite, wasn't comfortable for either of them, but was aimed at damage control. Sometimes adults have to stop kids from doing something emotionally and/or physically dangerous. And sometimes adults have to do that with other adults too: consider taking car keys away from a drunk person, which is also a plausible outcome of that evening. Tony drove a racecar while staggering drunk in Iron Man 2.

>> It's Tony's house; he's in charge. <<

1) It is Tony's garage. It is Avengers Tower. They do still tend to give Tony more leeway because it started out as his property, but it's communal now. Sometimes, yes, that causes disputes. Tony has no frigging clue how to live with people; he's only ever had two real friends. The only ones with functional communal living experience are probably Steve and Bucky, and Bucky's off the rails tonight.

2) Agent Coulson is the handler for the Avengers. Uncle Phil is in charge on game nights. Captain America is the team leader for the Avengers. Tony isn't the authority in this group. He acts like he's in charge frequently because he is rich and powerful and used to people doing what he says. The team will readily defer to him on technical matters. But leadership? He can't control himself, let alone anyone else. He does a crappy job of running his company, that's what Pepper is for.

And don't forget that Tony told Phil he needed not to be in charge of anything earlier in the day. That was a rare case of Tony making exactly the right call. What happened later is precisely why Tony needed not to be in charge: he's all out of resources with which to make good decisions or resist impulses. This time, fortunately, someone was there to catch him and prevent him from doing something insanely destructive of self, property, or other people.

Phil was a hell of a lot more gentle about it than Rhodey was in Iron Man 2. The situation still sucks, but it could have gone much worse.

>> Then Phil "tows" Tony to another room, all the while forcing his unwelcome presence on Tony. <<

Unwelcome, yes. Unneeded, no. They'll be discussing that later too.

>> You do him a disservice to imply his fault is on an equal footing with Bucky's, <<

Given the mass of mistakes the two of them made, I'm not sure which way the scales would tip.

>> or to imply that Phil was entirely in the right. <<

I can't think of a solution that would put nobody's liberty and safety at risk. Phil's choice has the benefit of minimizing destructive behavior, at the risk of alienating Tony. If I'd been there -- not that I'd ever deal with Tony Stark -- I probably would have let him go. But I'm aware that he would almost certainly have gotten into trouble soon after; that's the risk of not intervening. Also I don't have Phil's background of trust and boundary-sharing with Tony. (Remember that Flip has switched down for the team before, and he needs a push to do that.) Context is crucial.

>> Bucky tries to assert dominance with violence; <<

Threats of violence, which are not good and did cause problems. Tony's the one who took a verbal conflict physical.

>> Phil treats it as a given that he has authority no matter what, <<

Phil is the team handler, which is an official position, on top of his ageplay role. If there's a head of family here, it is either Phil or Steve. Honestly I'd say Phil is the head and Steve is the heart, because they do different things both in combat and at home. That gives Phil a reasonable expectation that people will follow his lead. It doesn't mean he never makes mistakes or never makes people uncomfortable. It just means that, more often than not, his ideas work.

>> and merely ignores the reality of Tony's nonconsent as if that will make it go away. <<

Tony has a problem with consent. It's never going to be perfectly clear, because he's boundary-blind. (Consider his sexual habits; that promiscuity is typical of some adult children of alcholics.) If you're holding out for clear, right-minded consent ... he'd never get to do anything. Tony's not that kind of guy. He runs headlong through life. So, he has to deal with what happens when his consent is murky. He doesn't know what he's doing, or why, much of the time. But look at the two examples here, because they're different in important ways.

Bucky: clear nonconsent. Tony rejects Bucky's claim of authority forcefully, threatens him, and pushes him away. It's plain that Tony will keep escalating this as far as necessary.

Phil: complicated consent that ends in grudging acquiescence. There's a subtle negotiation going on between Phil and Tony. Phil explains why he's doing what he's doing. Tony asks him to stop because it's unpleasant. Phil provides more reasoning. And Tony isn't willing to keep upping the ante the way he was with Bucky, because his own feelings are mixed. If Phil stands firm, Tony will yield -- and Phil is pretty much the only person who has this effect on Tony. Phil's current version is a lot healthier than it used to be. (Consider the IM2 quote, "If you try to leave, I will tase you and watch Supernanny while you drool into the carpet.") So it's not the first time they've had to navigate messy consent issues.

If Tony had been as wholeheartedly against Phil's actions as he was against Bucky's actions, there were a lot more options Tony could have pursued to make Phil leave him alone. He chose not to. That still isn't the ideal of clear consent, but it's a long distance from the clear nonconsent he used to flatten Bucky.

>> Tony does act out, but he merely demonstrates fear-based aggression; he's just trying to keep himself safe, not exert his will on anyone else. <<

Agreed.

>> The entire extent of Tony's share in the blame is that he made an oversight in telling JARVIS what to do. <<

I think there's more to it than that.

>> (It's hard even to blame him for being emotionally immature enough not to walk away, considering that he's trying to become more emotionally mature, and considering that in light of Phil's later behavior it doesn't seem like that would have been allowed.) <<

If Tony had said "I'm getting overloaded, I need some space" or "I'm not going to fight with you, I'm leaving now" then Phil probably would have let him go. Those would be indications of clear thinking. If Tony had just walked away before things completely went to hell, Phil might have let him go. Tony trying to pull away while obviously not in a rational state of mind, when Phil knows what a trouble-magnet Tony is, just wasn't acceptable to Phil.

The keys are this:
* Does the person have the emotional coping skills to settle down in private? Or will things get worse?
* Are there other people willing and able to help someone find a state of calm? Or are they going to harass the person into a complete meltdown?
* What are the possible risks of intervening or doing nothing, both for people and for property?
* And then what happens? Different people react to similar situations in their own ways. If someone is really alarmed, they might end a relationship; if they're just moderately affronted, they might work it out.

>> I would not be surprised, at this point, if Tony's trust in Uncle Phil (and, to some extent, the other Avengers) were permanently broken. I would not be surprised if he quit Game Night. I certainly would not expect any more vulnerability from him in their company for a long time, if ever. <<

This is where the mixed part of the consent comes in. Tony has to figure out what his own feelings on the matter are, in the process of deciding how to relate to Bucky and Phil after this. It's not a simple fix.

>> Love the series and what you are doing with the characters. <<

Thank you!

>> I just hope everything is not blamed solely on Tony. <<

No, it's a party foul, and several things contributed to the blowup. Some were innocent accidents, others foolish choices and damage-related mishaps. It wasn't deliberate malice on anyone's part.

>> I know if I had fallen asleep (after a few crappy and stressful days) and was woken up by someone yanking me up, calling me a name and threatening me, I would probably come out swinging too. <<

I actually have hit people who woke me up the wrong way. Certain of my body's defenses will activate if I'm not there to turn them off. Tony and Bucky need to have a discussion about that stuff.

>> Just hoping Bucky's horrible behavior is addressed <<

Everyone's misbehavior will get addressed eventually, after they've had time to cool off. Bucky needs to understand that physical punishment is right out for this group. And Tony's mouth is a weapon of mass destruction.

>>and Tony gets a lot of comfort too.<<

He really needs it, but he is nowhere near being ready to accept it. That access port jams under stress, which is something that Tony and Phil need to discuss.

>> First reaction: "Whew! But not nearly as bad as I feared it would be, from Y's introduction and warnings." <<

The warnings are there because, this far into the series, I knew that the content would resonate strongly enough for a bunch of readers to need an extra trigger alert. With a random audience, or other characters, the words and actions alone aren't as intense. But in this context ...

>> Reading the comments, second reaction: "Hoo-eee! There's a LOT going on in there that I wasn't noticing!" <<

... there is far more going on under the surface than is visible at first glance.

>> Κύδος, milady! <<

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

>> Well that escalated quickly. <<

Some fights have a slow burn, while others explode suddenly. This one happened so fast that not even Phil could intervene before it got bad, although he did manage to prevent serious physical harm.

>> Bruce did kind of amazing here. <<

He really did. I think he did the best out of everyone.

>> All the screaming and threats of violence had to have set him off especially when he's in a much younger mind set, <<

Yeah, that goes right to survival-threat territory for Bruce. His father abused both Bruce and his mother, and then murdered the mother. Fortunately Bruce has come far enough that even with his history all ruffled up like this, he can keep enough grip on the present and his safe associations with the group that he didn't Hulk out.

>> but he cried about it and then sought comfort when he was ready too. As much as it hurts me to see him upset it was good to see how far he's come since the series started. <<

It's a wonderful sign of Bruce's progress that he's able to reach out like this.

>> Bucky and Tony, wow. As if they weren't all tangled up before and both needing some help now...I hope they manage to work through this with some help. <<

That's what Phil is there for, although some of the other team members help too. They won't give up on each other just because it's hard sometimes.

>> Tony's so defensive when Bucky found him <<

Tony is used to people getting pissed at him for things he doesn't fully understand. It makes him twitchy under certain circumstances.

>> and you've already established in the story where they bring Betty to the tower that he doesn't wake up quickly <<

That's called sleep inertia, and there's further discussion of it later in this story.

>> so feeling attacked so quickly after waking up combined with the stress from that morning of course he was going to escalate things. <<

Yes, exactly -- and Bucky wasn't thinking clearly either, so it was hard for him to see what was going wrong or how to stop it.

>>So worried for all of them right now.<<

It's a scary situation. They'll get through it, though.

>>So I went through and read all the comments for this entry and thought that a lot of people had some really good thoughts. It's always nice to see that sort of civilized discussion in comments.<<

Yes, I'm pleased that my audience usually manages to keep their cool, even when discussing controversial topics. I try to encourage that.

>> I've been thinking about this scene and Tony and Phil's actions a lot for the past couple of hours and I wanted to share my thoughts. <<

I love it when my writing makes people think, especially when they post about it. Yay, feedback!

>> I'm chronically ill and subsequently disabled. I have a hard time eating, walking, and bathing sometimes. <<

Bummer. I have a fair number of disabled readers here, and in some of my other series -- I write about characters with handicaps fairly often. I find it very helpful when folks share their experiences; sometimes that weaves its way into new material.

>> I'm also way too stubborn for my own good. I'll want to do something (even something pretty boring like clean the bathroom) and be willing to push way past my limits leaving me in pain and sick and potentially stuck in bed. <<

I know how it goes. My body has its quirks, some of which are pesky to work around. It sucks to push past that kind of boundary and then go splat.

>> But because I struggle with my self worth and place in the house now that I'm disabled (which is all on me, I'm very lucky and have a extremely supportive environment), I'm willing to push myself that far even though I know it's a bad idea. <<

I think that's something each person has to figure out on their own. It's your body, your mind, your life. You're the only one who can decide if the physical distress of pushing too far is worse, or if the mental distress of feeling useless is worse. Same with possible solutions, nobody else can tell what works for you or doesn't. But they can offer ideas and support.

This is a huge issue for some of the Avengers. Right now, Bucky has the worst problems with self-worth due to disability, because he's not ready to go back in the field yet so he feels useless. Tony still has it in his head that he needs to justify his right to keep living. Steve and Bruce sometimes get into a similar mindset, too, though for different reasons.

It helps that the whole teamfamily is determined to look after each other, though. They are learning everyone's strengths and weaknesses so they can compensate for those. Nobody has to do it alone.

>> Sometimes I need a friend or family member to get me to stop because I'm not in the right mindset to do it for myself. <<

Sooth. I think everyone needs that sometimes -- if you're exhausted, sick, injured, emotionally overloaded, etc. then you may not be thinking clearly. People with a chronic physical or mental condition may run into this more often.

Easy to forget with Tony because he hides it as best he can, but his chest isn't in perfect working order and he's got PTSD symptoms. The problem drinking is more obvious. His habit of running himself off the rails is very canonical.

>> And that's what Phil holding onto Tony felt like to me. Like Tony wasn't in a place to be making fully informed decisions about what's best for him, so Phil stepped up. <<

I'm glad this came through clearly for you. It may be that people interpret the scene differently based on their own experiences. "We see the world not as it is, but as we are."

>>You mentioned in earlier comments, and I agree, that Tony would have gotten away from Phil if he really wanted to or felt threatened. Instead he whined. I can totally relate to that, sometimes you need to kick up a fuss just so you can be reassured that it doesn't matter.<<

Exactly. For Tony, it's really difficult to deal with his limits. His whole identity is based on a headlong rush. Caution often feels wrong to him, so he tends to complain over it. But that's not the same thing as when something makes him feel threatened.

>> To me it felt like Tony testing how committed Phil was to taking care of him. People test because they need/desire proof that there is actually something there to stop them from falling. <<

You just put your finger on one of the main things that Tony gets out of ageplay, and he started doing it with Phil the moment they met. Phil almost the only person who stands up to Tony when Tony tries to do something stupid or dangerous. Tony needs safe limits because he didn't get that growing up. It's the emotional equivalent of leaning into a safety rail to make sure it won't budge.

>> Things can feel very unpleasant even with the knowledge that it's for the best. I think this is Tony recognizing that. <<

Very true. What Phil did was beneficial, but no fun for anybody. Later on they talk about ways to maintain safety with less discomfort.

>> tl;dr I think Phil made the right call speaking as someone who's had similar situations happen to her because my ability for self-care wasn't high enough at the particular moment. <<

Thanks. I really appreciate that perspective.

For me, I have hard and soft limits. There are some things where I rely on people around me to say when I need to stop, if it's something I have a difficult time identifying the limit myself. There are some things where I can tell, but we don't always make the same call, and people who care about me will argue over what's enough or too much. Then there are things where I require people to leave me alone, no matter how much they want to get involved -- things that are dealbreakers for me, and I've lost a few friendships because people just couldn't abide by that. People have varying ideas about what kind and how much help they are willing to give or receive, or hold back. Relationships are about finding ways to balance both people's needs.

>> (I wrote all of this out on my phone and then accidentally left the page losing my comment. Like a sane person I hopped on the computer real fast a retyped it. If anything of this doesn't make sense let me know, I'm on a lot of nighttime meds at the moment. I'm happy to clarify if I'm not being clear.) <<

It sounds clear to me. Thanks for taking the time to write all this out!

I hope you enjoy the rest of the story. There is a lot of talking later as Phil, Tony, and Bucky work through what happened and try to figure out how to prevent various aspects from recurring.