Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 8
Aug. 28th, 2013 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13.
WARNING: This chapter features the big blowup. There is severe verbal abuse, vulgarity, a minor physical altercation, complicated and murky consent issues. It includes Bucky!whump and Tony!whump, and well, basically all the Avengers go whump! whump! whump! down the emotional staircase. If these are concerns for you, consider taking extra precautions; if you're in delicate space, consider waiting before you read this part. Things will get better later, of course, but this scene is the doooooom.
"Hide and Seek" Part 8
"Found him!" Bucky yelled. Phil whirled to see Bucky lifting Tony from a car. Relief flooded through him as he hurried toward them. "Tony got himself stuck in the trunk here and fell asleep."
"I was not stuck!" Tony said. He wormed his way free of Bucky's grasp and dropped to the ground. He stood stiffly out of reach. "There is no way to get stuck in the trunk of any car I own. They all have escape latches inside. Hidden tools, too."
Which Tony had added after an unpleasant kidnapping incident in his twenties; the phrasing and reference, coupled with the body language, meant that this was Tony Stark and not Tony Carter.
Relief turned to anger as Phil processed that Tony had carelessly fallen asleep and alarmed everyone for no good reason. He opened his mouth to start yelling -- then remembered Bruce, who was still clinging to him, and Tony, who did not need another round of verbal abuse. What they needed was a sense of safety even when things went wrong.
Phil closed his mouth, breathed slowly through his nose, and tried to dig up some patience. Game night is safe space. I need to keep my temper in check and --
"What were you thinking?" Bucky said, taking a step toward Tony.
"That it was a great hiding place, which it is," Tony said. He jerked his chin up and glared at Bucky. "What's the big deal?"
"You scared the crap out of us, you little punk!" Bucky snapped. He sounded like an irate teenager, age jinking upward in response to the stress.
Bruce flinched against Phil's side. "Bucky, that's not helping," Phil said. He tried to separate the two of them. "Calm down and let me deal with this."
"I ought to take a belt to you --" Bucky said, waving a hand at Tony.
"You fucking try it. I will break your arm too," Tony said coldly.
"No," Phil said in his firmest voice. Bruce skittered away. "No hitting."
"That's not hitting, it's perfectly ordinary punishment," Bucky scoffed. "He needs to show some respect --"
"Fuck you! You're not my father!" Tony screamed, shoving Bucky hard enough to rock him against the car.
That gave Phil a chance to wedge himself between them, but it was too late.
Just like that, Bruce was crying. Bucky was not only crying but would have run out of the room except for Phil's stern grip on him. Tony was furious and defensive, both hands held in front of himself. Phil didn't know which way to turn first.
Naturally that's when the rest of the Avengers poured into the garage to reassure themselves that Tony had been found safely. Black Widow demanded a situation report. Steve homed in on Bucky, who finally wrenched loose from Phil. Bucky buried his face in Steve's shoulder. Betty went to Bruce, only to find him skittish and resistant. She held off touching him and instead scowled at everyone. At least Hulk hadn't made an appearance. Amidst the uproar, Tony shook with tension.
"All right, who's the jerk that upset Bruce?" Hawkeye said.
"He is!" Tony and Bucky chorused, pointing at each other. That just set off another round of louder recriminations from everyone. No amount of calling for order helped.
Phil finally stalked to the wall of the garage and resorted to a last-ditch tactic for restoring peace.
"Hey! Why'd the lights go off? JARVIS!" Tony yelped.
"I turned them off," Phil said.
The ruckus gradually quieted down.
"Is anyone injured?" Phil asked, just to be safe.
A soft chorus of negatives sounded.
"Now, here's what is going to happen," Phil said as he turned the lights back on. "Tony, we're done playing hide and seek for tonight. Remove the block on your location so that JARVIS can find you."
Tony clapped his hands and said, "JARVIS, Daddy's home."
"It's good to have you back, sir," JARVIS replied, an edge in his voice. Tony's human family hadn't been the only ones worried about him.
"Are you just going to let him get away with --" Steve began.
"Stop," Phil said. "Everyone, just stop. We're all upset. Therefore now is not a good time to discuss what went wrong. We're going to go upstairs and watch something silly on television until we calm down. Then we'll go to bed. There will be time enough to deal with this tomorrow, with cooler heads."
Tony gave him a mulish look but said nothing. Hawkeye looked no better, and Black Widow was unreadable. Steve, still holding onto Bucky, was taut with anger. "Yes, sir," Steve said, biting off the ends of the words.
"Thank you," Phil said. Neither Bucky nor Bruce would meet Phil's eyes. Betty seemed calmer, though. "Bruce, are you settled enough to go with Betty, or do you still need me?"
"Betty," Bruce whispered. He moved close enough to clutch her tightly. Phil felt grateful that Bruce managed to hold onto his control, somehow -- or perhaps that Hulk trusted the team enough to let them handle the situation instead of bursting out to deal with it himself.
"All right then, I'll leave you to Betty while I stick with Tony," Phil said. Betty coaxed Bruce to the door. "Hawkeye, Black Widow, please go change clothes. I'll expect Clint and Natka in the common room shortly." They peeled off at once. Steve led Bucky out. Phil took Tony in hand.
"Let go," Tony said, twisting his wrist.
Phil moved with him to keep Tony from breaking the grip. "Tony, stop that," he said. "You dropped out of touch in a way that scared people, so I'm holding onto you for a while."
Dark, complex emotions roiled over Tony's face. Then they flowed away, leaving a mask almost as blank as Natasha's. "Whatever," Tony said.
"I know you're upset right now, because things went wrong and people hurt each other's feelings. You may not want to talk with me or be around me, but I'm too worried about you to let you run off alone," Phil said, watching carefully for a response. "I still care about you, even when you do troublesome things, and I'm here for you."
Tony just shrugged.
"Come with me," Phil said, and towed Tony back toward the common room.
* * *
Notes:
The ageplay goes to hash in this chapter, as several people lose their grip on their intended age and shift around. It doesn't help that even Tony's adult persona has some seriously childish traits. Under stress, people can have a hard time being consistent and focused about anything.
Recent cars must have an escape latch in the trunk. Older cars can be retrofitted with one. For the purpose of this series, I figure that Tony Stark was instrumental in those developments. There are tips for escaping from a car trunk and escaping from a kidnapper's car. Tony of course knows these too.
In this scene, Phil uses primarily assertive body language. Bucky's is more aggressive. Tony and Bruce are more defensive.
Everyone has to deal with rejection sometimes. There are tips on handling rejection yourself and helping a friend cope with it. Examples in this chapter include Tony pulling away from Bucky (which Bucky handles badly) and Bruce shying away from Betty (who is no more pleased, but responds better).
Naturally parents get angry with children sometimes. You can stop your anger from affecting your children and plan ahead for it. Learn how to get control of your emotions and how to handle your anger. There are tip sheets for anger management. If you stop yelling at your kids, you can learn some amazing things.
There are tips for kids too. Anger is an emotion that everyone needs to deal with in a healthy manner. Family fights can make this difficult. For healthy families, there are tips to tell your parents that you're angry with them or to get forgiveness after doing something stupid. For dysfunctional families, learn how to deal with mean parents, deal with a terrible dad, or cope with being unloved.
Adults can help children learn to manage their emotions and disagreements. Pay attention to levels and expressions of anger in children. Teach children to communicate. and work through conflicts. Some angry children may need extra help. Parents should follow rules for dealing with angry children, understand how to help them, and teach them to deal with anger.
Know how to calm down in a crisis. Breathing exercises may help. Phil and Bruce are particularly fond of that method.
Verbal abuse is also known as emotional or psychological abuse. It has recognizable characteristics and behaviors, so you can learn to identify it. Here are some examples and a checklist of signs. Ask yourself some important questions. Understand how verbal abuse affects children and what to do instead. Learn how to stop verbal abuse from both sides.
Emotional abuse in families may cause brain damage to children. Watch for signs of it. Witnessing verbal abuse between parents has a negative impact on children. Basically, children learn what they live; some learn to be mean, while others learn to be kind, depending on their environment. Think about what your children are learning from you. There are reasons why mean kids are so aggressive. Children can learn not to be cruel.
Verbal abuse hurts, and it can harm relationships with harsh words. There are things parents should never say to their children, things children should never say to their parents, and things nobody should say to anybody they care about.
Turning off the lights is a classic technique to quiet a classroom. It works on adults, if you are intending to imply that they are behaving like children.
Don't try to solve problems while you're angry. An upset person will not be able to think or communicate very clearly. When emotions run very high, it makes sense to wait for everyone to calm down before trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. This is an important principle of emotional first aid: stop the damage from getting worse, then think about repairs. Understand what not to say and do.
There are several ways to break a wrist hold, including this video demonstration. Tony knows this stuff. So does Phil, hence his response of moving with Tony to avoid the escape. You can see that Phil's aim is not physical restraint but rather emotional control. Tony's acquiescence is grudging, but at least an improvement over the recent mayhem. Tony can't feel it right now, but he needs Uncle Phil to act as a brace so that he doesn't flop around out of control.
Emotional suppression happens when people feel threatened. It's important to become aware of emotional suppression and to access your feelings. Tony's primary mode is effusive emotional expression; he prefers to turn most things outward. But he also has a very secretive side, and that's what comes out the more insecure he feels. When Tony shuts down like this, it's a serious warning sign. He's in his own garage with people he knows and they were just doing ageplay, and he still feels so unsafe that he's stuffing his emotions in a can.
Emotional armor can be difficult to undo. It's a combination of physical and mental tension that forms in response to negative experiences, in an effort to protect the self from further damage. There are ways to clear the emotional blocks and let go of the armor. Phil and Tony will be working on this later in the story.
There are ways to calm and comfort an upset child. Adults should also understand what not to do.
Like most of the Avengers, sometimes Tony has problems with impaired consent. Here is a good discussion about the spectrum of consent. When possible, Phil provides support and helps people make good decisions. But he's not willing to stand by and let anyone make the kind of bad decisions that could hurt themselves or others -- which movie canon is full of, like Tony driving a car or flying the suit while drunk.
And who gets the gold star for doing all the right things in a crummy situation? Bruce-and-Hulk. They're able to express emotions without triggering an involuntary transformation or having any other kind of destructive outburst. Crying is okay. Crying after you've spent most of your life stuffing your emotions is actually an accomplishment! Bruce-and-Hulk seek reassurance from safe people, until their hypersensitivity spikes too much, and then they pull back. As soon as it goes down, they seek comfort again, and find it. Comfort-seeking is a sign of secure attachment, which is not how they started. This is hard to see through the smouldering haze of doom, and it doesn't feel good, but they actually did a great job.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7. Skip to Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13.
WARNING: This chapter features the big blowup. There is severe verbal abuse, vulgarity, a minor physical altercation, complicated and murky consent issues. It includes Bucky!whump and Tony!whump, and well, basically all the Avengers go whump! whump! whump! down the emotional staircase. If these are concerns for you, consider taking extra precautions; if you're in delicate space, consider waiting before you read this part. Things will get better later, of course, but this scene is the doooooom.
"Hide and Seek" Part 8
"Found him!" Bucky yelled. Phil whirled to see Bucky lifting Tony from a car. Relief flooded through him as he hurried toward them. "Tony got himself stuck in the trunk here and fell asleep."
"I was not stuck!" Tony said. He wormed his way free of Bucky's grasp and dropped to the ground. He stood stiffly out of reach. "There is no way to get stuck in the trunk of any car I own. They all have escape latches inside. Hidden tools, too."
Which Tony had added after an unpleasant kidnapping incident in his twenties; the phrasing and reference, coupled with the body language, meant that this was Tony Stark and not Tony Carter.
Relief turned to anger as Phil processed that Tony had carelessly fallen asleep and alarmed everyone for no good reason. He opened his mouth to start yelling -- then remembered Bruce, who was still clinging to him, and Tony, who did not need another round of verbal abuse. What they needed was a sense of safety even when things went wrong.
Phil closed his mouth, breathed slowly through his nose, and tried to dig up some patience. Game night is safe space. I need to keep my temper in check and --
"What were you thinking?" Bucky said, taking a step toward Tony.
"That it was a great hiding place, which it is," Tony said. He jerked his chin up and glared at Bucky. "What's the big deal?"
"You scared the crap out of us, you little punk!" Bucky snapped. He sounded like an irate teenager, age jinking upward in response to the stress.
Bruce flinched against Phil's side. "Bucky, that's not helping," Phil said. He tried to separate the two of them. "Calm down and let me deal with this."
"I ought to take a belt to you --" Bucky said, waving a hand at Tony.
"You fucking try it. I will break your arm too," Tony said coldly.
"No," Phil said in his firmest voice. Bruce skittered away. "No hitting."
"That's not hitting, it's perfectly ordinary punishment," Bucky scoffed. "He needs to show some respect --"
"Fuck you! You're not my father!" Tony screamed, shoving Bucky hard enough to rock him against the car.
That gave Phil a chance to wedge himself between them, but it was too late.
Just like that, Bruce was crying. Bucky was not only crying but would have run out of the room except for Phil's stern grip on him. Tony was furious and defensive, both hands held in front of himself. Phil didn't know which way to turn first.
Naturally that's when the rest of the Avengers poured into the garage to reassure themselves that Tony had been found safely. Black Widow demanded a situation report. Steve homed in on Bucky, who finally wrenched loose from Phil. Bucky buried his face in Steve's shoulder. Betty went to Bruce, only to find him skittish and resistant. She held off touching him and instead scowled at everyone. At least Hulk hadn't made an appearance. Amidst the uproar, Tony shook with tension.
"All right, who's the jerk that upset Bruce?" Hawkeye said.
"He is!" Tony and Bucky chorused, pointing at each other. That just set off another round of louder recriminations from everyone. No amount of calling for order helped.
Phil finally stalked to the wall of the garage and resorted to a last-ditch tactic for restoring peace.
"Hey! Why'd the lights go off? JARVIS!" Tony yelped.
"I turned them off," Phil said.
The ruckus gradually quieted down.
"Is anyone injured?" Phil asked, just to be safe.
A soft chorus of negatives sounded.
"Now, here's what is going to happen," Phil said as he turned the lights back on. "Tony, we're done playing hide and seek for tonight. Remove the block on your location so that JARVIS can find you."
Tony clapped his hands and said, "JARVIS, Daddy's home."
"It's good to have you back, sir," JARVIS replied, an edge in his voice. Tony's human family hadn't been the only ones worried about him.
"Are you just going to let him get away with --" Steve began.
"Stop," Phil said. "Everyone, just stop. We're all upset. Therefore now is not a good time to discuss what went wrong. We're going to go upstairs and watch something silly on television until we calm down. Then we'll go to bed. There will be time enough to deal with this tomorrow, with cooler heads."
Tony gave him a mulish look but said nothing. Hawkeye looked no better, and Black Widow was unreadable. Steve, still holding onto Bucky, was taut with anger. "Yes, sir," Steve said, biting off the ends of the words.
"Thank you," Phil said. Neither Bucky nor Bruce would meet Phil's eyes. Betty seemed calmer, though. "Bruce, are you settled enough to go with Betty, or do you still need me?"
"Betty," Bruce whispered. He moved close enough to clutch her tightly. Phil felt grateful that Bruce managed to hold onto his control, somehow -- or perhaps that Hulk trusted the team enough to let them handle the situation instead of bursting out to deal with it himself.
"All right then, I'll leave you to Betty while I stick with Tony," Phil said. Betty coaxed Bruce to the door. "Hawkeye, Black Widow, please go change clothes. I'll expect Clint and Natka in the common room shortly." They peeled off at once. Steve led Bucky out. Phil took Tony in hand.
"Let go," Tony said, twisting his wrist.
Phil moved with him to keep Tony from breaking the grip. "Tony, stop that," he said. "You dropped out of touch in a way that scared people, so I'm holding onto you for a while."
Dark, complex emotions roiled over Tony's face. Then they flowed away, leaving a mask almost as blank as Natasha's. "Whatever," Tony said.
"I know you're upset right now, because things went wrong and people hurt each other's feelings. You may not want to talk with me or be around me, but I'm too worried about you to let you run off alone," Phil said, watching carefully for a response. "I still care about you, even when you do troublesome things, and I'm here for you."
Tony just shrugged.
"Come with me," Phil said, and towed Tony back toward the common room.
* * *
Notes:
The ageplay goes to hash in this chapter, as several people lose their grip on their intended age and shift around. It doesn't help that even Tony's adult persona has some seriously childish traits. Under stress, people can have a hard time being consistent and focused about anything.
Recent cars must have an escape latch in the trunk. Older cars can be retrofitted with one. For the purpose of this series, I figure that Tony Stark was instrumental in those developments. There are tips for escaping from a car trunk and escaping from a kidnapper's car. Tony of course knows these too.
In this scene, Phil uses primarily assertive body language. Bucky's is more aggressive. Tony and Bruce are more defensive.
Everyone has to deal with rejection sometimes. There are tips on handling rejection yourself and helping a friend cope with it. Examples in this chapter include Tony pulling away from Bucky (which Bucky handles badly) and Bruce shying away from Betty (who is no more pleased, but responds better).
Naturally parents get angry with children sometimes. You can stop your anger from affecting your children and plan ahead for it. Learn how to get control of your emotions and how to handle your anger. There are tip sheets for anger management. If you stop yelling at your kids, you can learn some amazing things.
There are tips for kids too. Anger is an emotion that everyone needs to deal with in a healthy manner. Family fights can make this difficult. For healthy families, there are tips to tell your parents that you're angry with them or to get forgiveness after doing something stupid. For dysfunctional families, learn how to deal with mean parents, deal with a terrible dad, or cope with being unloved.
Adults can help children learn to manage their emotions and disagreements. Pay attention to levels and expressions of anger in children. Teach children to communicate. and work through conflicts. Some angry children may need extra help. Parents should follow rules for dealing with angry children, understand how to help them, and teach them to deal with anger.
Know how to calm down in a crisis. Breathing exercises may help. Phil and Bruce are particularly fond of that method.
Verbal abuse is also known as emotional or psychological abuse. It has recognizable characteristics and behaviors, so you can learn to identify it. Here are some examples and a checklist of signs. Ask yourself some important questions. Understand how verbal abuse affects children and what to do instead. Learn how to stop verbal abuse from both sides.
Emotional abuse in families may cause brain damage to children. Watch for signs of it. Witnessing verbal abuse between parents has a negative impact on children. Basically, children learn what they live; some learn to be mean, while others learn to be kind, depending on their environment. Think about what your children are learning from you. There are reasons why mean kids are so aggressive. Children can learn not to be cruel.
Verbal abuse hurts, and it can harm relationships with harsh words. There are things parents should never say to their children, things children should never say to their parents, and things nobody should say to anybody they care about.
Turning off the lights is a classic technique to quiet a classroom. It works on adults, if you are intending to imply that they are behaving like children.
Don't try to solve problems while you're angry. An upset person will not be able to think or communicate very clearly. When emotions run very high, it makes sense to wait for everyone to calm down before trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. This is an important principle of emotional first aid: stop the damage from getting worse, then think about repairs. Understand what not to say and do.
There are several ways to break a wrist hold, including this video demonstration. Tony knows this stuff. So does Phil, hence his response of moving with Tony to avoid the escape. You can see that Phil's aim is not physical restraint but rather emotional control. Tony's acquiescence is grudging, but at least an improvement over the recent mayhem. Tony can't feel it right now, but he needs Uncle Phil to act as a brace so that he doesn't flop around out of control.
Emotional suppression happens when people feel threatened. It's important to become aware of emotional suppression and to access your feelings. Tony's primary mode is effusive emotional expression; he prefers to turn most things outward. But he also has a very secretive side, and that's what comes out the more insecure he feels. When Tony shuts down like this, it's a serious warning sign. He's in his own garage with people he knows and they were just doing ageplay, and he still feels so unsafe that he's stuffing his emotions in a can.
Emotional armor can be difficult to undo. It's a combination of physical and mental tension that forms in response to negative experiences, in an effort to protect the self from further damage. There are ways to clear the emotional blocks and let go of the armor. Phil and Tony will be working on this later in the story.
There are ways to calm and comfort an upset child. Adults should also understand what not to do.
Like most of the Avengers, sometimes Tony has problems with impaired consent. Here is a good discussion about the spectrum of consent. When possible, Phil provides support and helps people make good decisions. But he's not willing to stand by and let anyone make the kind of bad decisions that could hurt themselves or others -- which movie canon is full of, like Tony driving a car or flying the suit while drunk.
And who gets the gold star for doing all the right things in a crummy situation? Bruce-and-Hulk. They're able to express emotions without triggering an involuntary transformation or having any other kind of destructive outburst. Crying is okay. Crying after you've spent most of your life stuffing your emotions is actually an accomplishment! Bruce-and-Hulk seek reassurance from safe people, until their hypersensitivity spikes too much, and then they pull back. As soon as it goes down, they seek comfort again, and find it. Comfort-seeking is a sign of secure attachment, which is not how they started. This is hard to see through the smouldering haze of doom, and it doesn't feel good, but they actually did a great job.
[To be continued in Part 9 ...]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 11:25 am (UTC)Of course Bucky would think of taking the belt to someone as perfectly ordinary punishment. Steve probably does, too. Heck, they more than likely both got the belt as kids even though they actually had good parents. (Well, Steve's mom at least. I don't know anything about Bucky's parents.) Come to think of it, all the Avengers are of a generation where when they were little, spanking was still considered normal more often than not...
Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much the worst thing Bucky could have said at that point.
Tony clearly didn't mean to scare his friends, and if it had been explained to him calmly I'm sure he'd have felt contrite, but the physical threat put him in full defense mode.
And it's especially unfortunate that this had to happen in front of Bruce.
Kudos to Phil for getting control back, but I don't expect the rest of the night, or the next day, to be particularly comfortable. (Hey, does this mean they'll still be little the next day?)
Kudos also to Steve, Nat and Clint for falling in line when they (especially Steve and Clint) clearly didn't want to. Thank god they were willing to take a leap of faith and let Phil sort it.
Yes...
Date: 2013-08-31 04:41 am (UTC)All the hurty hurtness in this chapter, yeah.
>> Of course Bucky would think of taking the belt to someone as perfectly ordinary punishment. Steve probably does, too. <<
Precisely. No matter how hard you try to fill in the culture gaps, there is no way to fix a 70-year breach in a few months. You are just going to step on some landmines like this.
>> Heck, they more than likely both got the belt as kids even though they actually had good parents. (Well, Steve's mom at least. I don't know anything about Bucky's parents.) <<
If not from their parents, certainly at the orphanage.
>> Come to think of it, all the Avengers are of a generation where when they were little, spanking was still considered normal more often than not... <<
Except none of them had normal families so that's no benchmark. They can't even identify what's ordinary behavior with reliable accuracy, because they haven't seen much of it.
>> Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much the worst thing Bucky could have said at that point. <<
Well, "I ought to drown you like a stray cat!" might have topped it -- which is an established thing some abusive parents say -- but what Bucky said was still waaayyy out of line.
>> Tony clearly didn't mean to scare his friends, and if it had been explained to him calmly I'm sure he'd have felt contrite, <<
Poor Tony has no ever-living clue why his friends are so upset. This takes pages of unpacking later in the story. He honestly didn't mean to cause a problem though; it wasn't a deliberate prank. But given his scapegoat traits, it may well have been a subconscious action -- when stress builds up, a scapegoat releases the pressure by getting into trouble. And that's not a role that's easy to break even after leaving the dysfunctional family that created it.
>> but the physical threat put him in full defense mode. <<
Yep. Palms-forward is an attack position for Tony, not a purely defensive gesture as it is for most.
>> And it's especially unfortunate that this had to happen in front of Bruce. <<
Unfortunate, yes, because it scared the heck out of him. Despite that, Bruce actually handled the stress in a much more effective manner than he has in the past. He was really upset, but: he didn't Hulk out, he was confident that people would protect him, and he was even able to seek out comfort once his sensory issues settled down. So that's great progress.
>> Kudos to Phil for getting control back, but I don't expect the rest of the night, or the next day, to be particularly comfortable. <<
Days, plural. It's not a quick fix, as much emotional mayhem as this brought up.
>> (Hey, does this mean they'll still be little the next day?) <<
No, although there is more ageplay later in the story.
>> Kudos also to Steve, Nat and Clint for falling in line when they (especially Steve and Clint) clearly didn't want to. Thank god they were willing to take a leap of faith and let Phil sort it. <<
They are learning that Phil has epic people skills and problem-solving ability. Everyone on the team has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. For most of the Avengers, social stuff is a weak point. (Steve, Bucky, and Betty have varying degrees of it but none of them have Phil's sheer depth of experience -- and Bucky botched his attempt.) In a team, it's important to know what people do well, so you can switch off fluently and put your most skilled member on the problem at hand. This is counterbalanced by the fact that most of the Avengers learned the hard way that they had to solve every problem themselves because nobody would help. Learning to step back and let Phil resolve people problems takes as much trust and practice as following Steve's strategies in battle or letting Tony deal with financial issues.
At least with most of the team following Phil's lead, that reduced the mess to something he could handle.
*ponder* So far everyone's been focusing on the consent issues with Tony -- which were the most dramatic -- but he's not the only one who wouldn't mind. Bucky, Hawkeye, and Steve all balked in different ways. Even Betty was glaring, and Black Widow was in a demanding mode rather than an accepting mode for a while. I think the only ones who showed zero resistance were Bruce-and-Hulk. Voice wasn't enough; Phil actually had to go shut the lights off before they'd quit fussing and mind him. Hawkeye and Steve were still pretty headstrong about it. But in the end Phil was able to get everyone into the common room and start them calming down.
Sometimes trust is about going along with someone else's idea when you don't want to, but you do it anyway because historically speaking their ideas tend to work.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-01 02:46 am (UTC)...and usually at the worst possible moment.
***Except none of them had normal families so that's no benchmark. They can't even identify what's ordinary behavior with reliable accuracy, because they haven't seen much of it.***
That is true, but it's also a cultural thing. I remember in movies/TV that came out 20 years ago or so, spankings were considered a normal part of growing up. They weren't usually shown on screen, just hinted at, but they were mostly played off as normal or even funny.
***Well, "I ought to drown you like a stray cat!" might have topped it -- which is an established thing some abusive parents say -- but what Bucky said was still waaayyy out of line.***
True, but that's not something Bucky ever would say. Of the things it's within Bucky's character to say, that was the worst. And I don't think he'll realize that without outside help. And event hen, he might resist the idea that physical punishment is wrong.
***[Bruce] So that's great progress.***
I think it may have to do with him becoming more accepting of the Hulk, therefore fighting less within himself all the time.
***Days, plural. It's not a quick fix, as much emotional mayhem as this brought up.***
*huggles everyone*
*** Learning to step back and let Phil resolve people problems takes as much trust and practice as following Steve's strategies in battle or letting Tony deal with financial issues. ***
I think the last one is also still hard for most of them. Sure, they live in Tony's house and eat his groceries and such, but if one of them suddenly really, urgently, desperately needed, say, $50,000, how many of them would be willing and able to walk up to Tony and ask? (And how would he take it? He'd give it to them, of course, but would it reinforce his doubts about being loved for himself vs. for his money, or would he just be happy to help out a friend?)
***At least with most of the team following Phil's lead, that reduced the mess to something he could handle. ***
I wonder what would happen if Phil ever messed up and handled something poorly--not just an oversight or just having too much going on at once to fix things immediately, but making an actual mistake due to stress or a genuine error in judgment or whatever. I know your Phil has AMAZING people skills, but he's still only human and humans screw up sometimes.
***Bucky, Hawkeye, and Steve all balked in different ways. Even Betty was glaring, and Black Widow was in a demanding mode rather than an accepting mode for a while.***
Well, emotions were running high, and Nat and Clint were switched up at the time... But yes, it clearly was hard for them to accept, too. As you say, they're all used to having to Fix Everything Themselves. And Steve especially will never fully get over the idea that HE is the one who has to take care of his team...
***Sometimes trust is about going along with someone else's idea when you don't want to, but you do it anyway because historically speaking their ideas tend to work.***
Beautifully said.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-01 04:22 am (UTC)Tony is fine on general culture. Clint's knowledge of it is patchy because he grew up poor and traveled around so much; he wouldn't always have television, or access to movies, let alone complete schooling. Natasha has very little, and most of that was training for specific missions. Steve and Bucky had good cultural knowledge but it's 70 years out of date. That's why the Avengers started studying some of this stuff together, trying to get everyone on the same page.
>> True, but that's not something Bucky ever would say. Of the things it's within Bucky's character to say, that was the worst. <<
Likely so.
>> And I don't think he'll realize that without outside help. And even then, he might resist the idea that physical punishment is wrong. <<
It will take some explanation. However, Tony made a damn clear case for why it doesn't work with the Avengers: they will freak out and hit back, which is good for nobody.
>> I think it may have to do with him becoming more accepting of the Hulk, therefore fighting less within himself all the time. <<
Yes, although they still have a lot to work out between them. But Hulk's emotional intelligence is growing fast now that he's in a healthier environment, and some of that spills over to Bruce just as Hulk's mindless rage used to.
>> I think the last one is also still hard for most of them. <<
Yes, it is.
>> Sure, they live in Tony's house and eat his groceries and such, but if one of them suddenly really, urgently, desperately needed, say, $50,000, how many of them would be willing and able to walk up to Tony and ask? <<
Bruce is getting to where he'll ask for expensive lab equipment. Most of the others will ask for things like armor or training gear. They're not nearly as comfortable asking for personal stuff. It's something the team is still working on.
>> (And how would he take it? He'd give it to them, of course, but would it reinforce his doubts about being loved for himself vs. for his money, or would he just be happy to help out a friend?)<<
Tony is generous by nature, so he likes helping his friends. If they mentioned how they wanted to spend the money, it would almost certainly be fine. Asking for large amounts of cash might bring up bad memories. But for the most part, Tony throws money around like confetti. It's probably easier to hit his "people just want me for my money/toys" button (which is not small) from an emotional angle than from money alone. Then again, part of that may just be because none of the Avengers have the tendency to take advantage of the endless wealth in a skeevy way.
>> I wonder what would happen if Phil ever messed up and handled something poorly--not just an oversight or just having too much going on at once to fix things immediately, but making an actual mistake due to stress or a genuine error in judgment or whatever. <<
So far, most of those examples are in the past, from the movies, and they do get some exposition in stories as Phil tries to patch up the lingering damage.
>> I know your Phil has AMAZING people skills, but he's still only human and humans screw up sometimes. <<
I do have a couple ideas for that. One involves Tony and Natasha working out leftover problems from Iron Man 2, and Phil just not realizing what was about to blow up in time to stop it. The other starts with Phil and Clint having a huge conflict, but I can't figure out what Phil could have done to make Clint shut him out when Clint knows what the silent treatment does to Phil.
>>As you say, they're all used to having to Fix Everything Themselves. And Steve especially will never fully get over the idea that HE is the one who has to take care of his team...<<
A next step in the teamwork skills will involve learning to ask for help and share information outside of combat.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-01 03:51 pm (UTC)True, but there are two places Bucky can go from there: 1) no hitting, ever, or 2) Tony has to learn to take what he's got coming (which is an attitude many proponents of corporeal punishment actually have about freak-outs, unfortunately, and almost certainly the one Bucky's familiar with from childhood). I hope Phil can guide him towards the right one.
***Bruce is getting to where he'll ask for expensive lab equipment. Most of the others will ask for things like armor or training gear. They're not nearly as comfortable asking for personal stuff. It's something the team is still working on.***
That's what I meant--lab equipment and gear are all "work stuff." I think t would be way harder for them to ask for money if they had, say, a family emergency (not that they have a family outside the team to have an emergency in the first place), or something from their past caught up with them, or something else Avenger-unrelated.
***I do have a couple ideas for that. One involves Tony and Natasha working out leftover problems from Iron Man 2, and Phil just not realizing what was about to blow up in time to stop it. The other starts with Phil and Clint having a huge conflict, but I can't figure out what Phil could have done to make Clint shut him out when Clint knows what the silent treatment does to Phil.***
Both of those sound interesting, but the second is more along the lines of what I'd meant--Phil actually *doing* something wrong, rather than not doing something write. Because humans screw up.
Maybe on a bad day, Phil might share something with someone that Clint didn't want him to? Or lose his temper at the wrong moment? (His patience can't *actually* be endless...)
***A next step in the teamwork skills will involve learning to ask for help and share information outside of combat.***
That's gonna be a struggle.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-10 05:09 am (UTC)I have some discussion between Phil and Steve, Phil and Bucky about this.
>> That's what I meant--lab equipment and gear are all "work stuff." <<
Yes, they're learning.
>> I think t would be way harder for them to ask for money if they had, say, a family emergency (not that they have a family outside the team to have an emergency in the first place), or something from their past caught up with them, or something else Avenger-unrelated. <<
Personal stuff they're more hesitant about, even ordinary things like clothes. Doesn't matter that they all have quite comfortable incomes now, it still feels like mooching to some people. Bruce is just starting to get over it. Bucky is the worst right now because he's not actually out superheroing. He knows that he's not up to it yet, that he needs more time to heal first, but it's still wrecking his sense of self-worth.
>> Both of those sound interesting, but the second is more along the lines of what I'd meant--Phil actually *doing* something wrong, rather than not doing something write. Because humans screw up. <<
I did eventually come up with an idea. Now the main drawback is that the story angle really focuses on Phil, which means that the person who made the original mistake winds up getting a majority of the on-camera comfort, because Clint's response knocks Phil to pieces. (Safety note: do not piss off target-happy, mouthy archer.) Not sure how well it will work.
>> That's gonna be a struggle. <<
Hoh yeah. You know how these characters have a tendency to solve problems on their own. Phil decides that's an unnecessary hazard now, and comes up with ideas to encourage them to cooperate more, on the theory that if it becomes a habit on a casual level then maybe the idea will occur to them the next time something actually goes wrong.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-10 05:18 pm (UTC)***on the theory that if it becomes a habit on a casual level then maybe the idea will occur to them the next time something actually goes wrong.***
Sound theory. I hope he realizes what he's letting himself in for.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-09-11 09:27 am (UTC)Perhaps. I've already got different segments of the story that may require a switch in perspective. I don't want too much scatter.
>> on the theory that if it becomes a habit on a casual level then maybe the idea will occur to them the next time something actually goes wrong.
Sound theory. I hope he realizes what he's letting himself in for. <<
*laugh* Well, not entirely. Phil understands that if this works, it'll spread. He wants the team to be able to support each other at need. He's thinking about personal and professional aspects, the way their job spills out beyond the heat of combat, and how their family is slowly growing into each other.
What I don't think he has realized is how much more mischief they could get into as a result.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-01 03:55 pm (UTC)That getting explained to a young nun must have been wrenching.
"I believe that God won't take Steve until he's ready to do so, and until then I'm going to do my best to let him become a man. Heaven knows few enough boys want to as much as Steve, even at thrice his age."
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-01 04:01 pm (UTC)One can only hope that the nuns in charge of that particular orphanage were the warm and compassionate kind.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 12:19 am (UTC)I went with switch for the younger kids and belt for the older ones, which is also a historic example.
>> The biggest problem would be not triggering an asthma attack, and that could probably be avoided by giving him breathers. <<
I got some use out of this too.
>> One can only hope that the nuns in charge of that particular orphanage were the warm and compassionate kind. <<
Most places, it's a mix.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 12:32 am (UTC)That works, too.
***I got some use out of this too.
I wouldn't say I'm exactly *looking forward* to reading about it, but I'm certainly very interested in seeing those chapters.
***Most places, it's a mix.
True, but a lot depends on how the ones in charge want things run. Not everything, of course.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-03 05:47 am (UTC)Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-03 05:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 11:33 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-09-02 07:28 am (UTC)In canon, Tony is an asshole. He's just so useful on technical merit that people overlook it for the sake of getting his goods and/or his help. But he has almost no friends, and his lack of people skills is why.
In this series, Tony is trying to do better, but it takes time to learn how. And how do you get experience? By making mistakes. One of those was pushing himself too far, too long and not taking enough time to recharge -- just as some readers have been worrying about.
>> Intense chapter, I could feel the nerves and anger vibrating! <<
I'm glad you found this so powerful.
>> Thanks for sharing - good luck to Phil with the aftermath... <<
There are a lot of aftermath stages, some of which go more smoothly than others. But Phil is doing his best to fix what's broken.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 11:55 am (UTC)Shit. Obviously, we knew that Howard wasn't much of a parent, but I was holding out hope that it was "only" neglect/emotional abuse until the last few chapters. And while breaking someone's arm isn't exactly a healthy response, I'm still pleased to know that Tony got the chance to fight back.
Lord, this really does manage to kick everyone in their respective issues, doesn't it? Poor Phil--I wouldn't even know where to start sorting it all out.
On the other hand, Tony and Bucky blaming each other for upsetting Bruce was kinda funny--it was such a brotherly way of fighting! I appreciated the lighter moment in the midst of all the dooooom.
Meg
Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 06:51 am (UTC)Shit. Obviously, we knew that Howard wasn't much of a parent, but I was holding out hope that it was "only" neglect/emotional abuse until the last few chapters. <<
I figure, most of the time Howard ignored Tony, but occasionally did other things -- a chaotic jumble of praise, condemnation, and drunken attacks. Not to mention going on and on about the virtues of Captain America and the importance of Stark Industries. Thing is, most drunks will hit at least sometimes ...
>> And while breaking someone's arm isn't exactly a healthy response, I'm still pleased to know that Tony got the chance to fight back. <<
... and eventually, a fair number of boys will hit back, usually in their teens. Consider that Tony's parents sent him off to college by himself in his mid-teens. This did not help him learn good life skills, but it did get him and Howard out of reach. Obviously they didn't want a child abuse scandal, so Howard could hardly admit what happened.
That's probably not the only time Tony has broken somebody's arm for assaulting him, either.
>> Lord, this really does manage to kick everyone in their respective issues, doesn't it? <<
It really does. This is about on par with what Tony and Steve did to each other when they first met. In some regards, Tony is like Clint: the target lights up and he takes the shot. He doesn't have a good enough brain-to-mouth filter to stop and think, "Wait, friendly fire isn't." That's what happened with Steve. With Bucky here, Tony was responding less to him as an individual and more to the inadvertent similarity to some of Tony's worst memories. Flashback-filtered conversation with Tony is like holding a match to a can of hairspray.
>> Poor Phil--I wouldn't even know where to start sorting it all out. <<
At this stage, Phil is pretty much focused on damage control. Figuring out what went wrong and how to fix it all will take a lot longer.
>> On the other hand, Tony and Bucky blaming each other for upsetting Bruce was kinda funny--it was such a brotherly way of fighting! I appreciated the lighter moment in the midst of all the dooooom. <<
*chuckle* Yeah, their age presentation was all over the place.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 09:16 pm (UTC)Yeah, I started to put that together after I replied the first time. Good god, it's hard to decide whether getting sent away was better or worse for Tony.
And now I want to know how Howard covered up his broken arm. Lab accident, maybe? He had to come up with something for the press/board members/society people.
>>With Bucky here, Tony was responding less to him as an individual and more to the inadvertent similarity to some of Tony's worst memories. Flashback-filtered conversation with Tony is like holding a match to a can of hairspray.<<
...Yeah. In some ways, I find Tony harder to identify with than a lot of the other Avengers, but I can totally identify with this part. I have verbally slaughtered a couple friends over the years. Because I wasn't seeing them; I was rehearsing bad things from the past, and they just happened to be there. Tony's gonna feel like shit when he realizes he took the past out on Bucky. (Although being fair, Bucky was seriously out of line, too.)
Meg
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 09:39 pm (UTC)Yes. It got him out of a bad situation at home, which helped. But it put him into a challenging context with almost no coping skills, and the method of choice for many college students is getting drunk and/or getting laid. That part, not helping.
>> And now I want to know how Howard covered up his broken arm. Lab accident, maybe? He had to come up with something for the press/board members/society people. <<
Well, there are several options ...
* If it was a crack instead of a complete break, it would show on X-rays but not necessarily require a cast. So it wouldn't be obvious, and Howard has more than enough money for a private physician and silence.
* He could simply have holed up in his lab for a few weeks. I doubt that's unusual behavior for Howard. Go away, world, I'm doing important science shit down here.
* If he had engagements he wasn't willing to blow off, then yes, I'd expect lab accident as the cover story. That's also probably established behavior for Howard.
>> ...Yeah. In some ways, I find Tony harder to identify with than a lot of the other Avengers, <<
Most readers have their favorite character(s) and often one or more they don't relate to as much. That's okay. An ensemble cast means there's something for almost everyone to enjoy.
>> but I can totally identify with this part. I have verbally slaughtered a couple friends over the years. Because I wasn't seeing them; I was rehearsing bad things from the past, and they just happened to be there. <<
Yep, that's a thing that happens. It always sucks.
>>Tony's gonna feel like shit when he realizes he took the past out on Bucky.<<
Hoh yeah.
Tony wasn't thinking about Bucky in the sense of tailoring insults to him personally (unlike what happened with Steve on the Helicarrier). Tony was responding to Bucky's words, but far more focused on the past than the present, and wound up saying some things to Bucky that he would never have said with a clear head. But Tony's brain wasn't booted up at the time, so he didn't realize how much damage he was dishing out. When that finally sinks in, Tony will be crushed.
>> (Although being fair, Bucky was seriously out of line, too.) <<
Similarly, Bucky had no idea that he was hitting Tony square in the abuse issues, nor that discipline has changed a lot in 70 years. He's going to feel like shit when he realizes what he did to Tony, too.
The advantage to living with other damaged people is that folks often understand what it's like when somebody loses their shit, and they know how to respond and not take it too personally. The disadvantage is that sometimes people hit each other's buttons -- including ones they don't know about -- and trigger a cascade where a conflict spreads out to hit other folks in range. The initial scene with Bucky's memory shorting out on him was one such cascade, and the garage scene is another.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 04:10 pm (UTC)As much into his cups as Howard could be in public, I doubt anyone would have wondered at him having a broken arm. They might have whispered about how much money it cost to keep someone from boasting/or the press digging into it.
Steve I think was a victim of Tony not granting him humanity, and treating him as a Symbol. Howard wouldn't have told Tony the things that made Steve Steve; I doubt Howard noticed most of them.
Actually, Tony's concept of Steve would have been very much like the overblown version prior to setting up for MCU. Almost like Jim Ellison "The lights are on but no ones home."
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-04 11:15 pm (UTC)That's likely true.
>> Steve I think was a victim of Tony not granting him humanity, and treating him as a Symbol. Howard wouldn't have told Tony the things that made Steve Steve; I doubt Howard noticed most of them. <<
Difference between icon and program, yes.
Big Boom
Date: 2013-08-28 01:23 pm (UTC)It's understandable because Bucky sees them all as his 'little brothers' in a way, and as a teenager he probably would have given Steve a whippin' for a stunt like that. He's tapping into that headspace, but he's not the parent anymore.
Re: Big Boom
Date: 2013-09-02 07:21 am (UTC)Well, none of the characters have much idea what happened, either.
>> Bucky managed to stomp hard on not only Tony's issues, but several of mine. (I went into it knowing it might, and it's not more than I can handle, but there was a long minute of Whoa!) <<
Sorry about that. Yeah, Bucky had on his stompin' boots that night.
>> There is undoubtedly a LOT to sort out here, but it seems to me that a big one is that Bucky is NOT that 'parent' here. Uncle Phil is, and while Phil might have consent to discipline Tony, Bucky doesn't. <<
That's a big part of it. Tony's response to Phil may have been murky, but he sure gave Bucky a clear "hell no."
>> It's understandable because Bucky sees them all as his 'little brothers' in a way, and as a teenager he probably would have given Steve a whippin' for a stunt like that. He's tapping into that headspace, but he's not the parent anymore. <<
That part is Bucky's parentification showing. It's easy to activate and very difficult to deactivate. He just doesn't have that much control over it yet. I think this is the first time the "big brother" effect has been a serious disadvantage, rather than an advantage, within the team. But Steve used to hackle about it, too, that's actually in the movie. Bucky was more protective of Steve than Steve was comfortable with, but Bucky wasn't willing to stand back and let him get beaten maybe to death.
Bucky's misappropriation of authority also made it harder for Tony to yield to Phil. It's hard to relax right after you've been hit.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 02:52 pm (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-08-28 05:34 pm (UTC)Take a look at the other comments for some good guesses.
>> They're grown adults. Yes, they're playing little, but that still doesn't give him the authority to punish Tony. <<
Authority, no; idea, yes. Bucky customarily plays older than Tony.
>>I'm sure you'll be exploring that in later chapters, so I look forward to it.<<
Yes, it does come up in the lengthy followup.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-01 04:20 pm (UTC)And, one of the tendencies among the poor regarding their own cohort is to disburse responsibility. Like the Force and duct tape that's got light and dark sides. When Bucky was a kid, Little Tony doing something like getting into a trunk (car, steamer, ice box) could have been fatal. Running out of air would have been the fastest if it was airtight.
Yes...
Date: 2013-09-04 11:18 pm (UTC)True.
>> And, one of the tendencies among the poor regarding their own cohort is to disburse responsibility. Like the Force and duct tape that's got light and dark sides. <<
They have to, it's the only way to get by when there's not enough to go around otherwise.
>> When Bucky was a kid, Little Tony doing something like getting into a trunk (car, steamer, ice box) could have been fatal. Running out of air would have been the fastest if it was airtight. <<
That right there is why Bucky flipped out so thoroughly. Past associations on top of present stress, plus the damage to his self-regulation capacity, put the scene past what he could handle rationally.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 06:25 pm (UTC)Thank you!
Date: 2013-08-31 06:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 07:28 pm (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 09:48 am (UTC)I'm glad it worked for you!
>> where I empathized with one character so much that I don't feel I could defend my opinion without sounding like an emotionally broken jerk. <<
0_o But that's not really the response I was going for. It's up to you whether to share an opinion or not, but you don't have to defend it. And based on the audience chatter, there's a lot of scratch-and-dent folks reading this story.
>> (Okay. So everyone has their emotional broken jerk moments; doesn't make me happier about mine.) <<
*hugs available*
>> I think that's a congratulations... even if I still kinda hope Hulk shows up, angry or no, because I like and empathize with Hulk a lot. <<
Not yet, but I think some of his growing emotional intelligence is getting through to Bruce, because despite the mayhem Bruce actually managed to reach out to people instead of losing his shit like Tony and Bucky did.
There will be more Hulk eventually, though. I have an idea for him in the next story, which is mostly Bucky's, but there are continuing threads of Bruce-and-Hulk too.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 10:58 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 11:15 pm (UTC)Bucky has one of the more serious cases of parentification in the group. That helps when he's taking a big-brother role, as long as he's gentle with people. But Bucky grew up in a pretty harsh setting, and this is the point when that starts to clash. People are beginning to look up to him, but there's a limit to how much authority they'll let him have. He needs to learn that you just can't be rough with the other Avengers.
>> it definitely made me feel that Tony had every right to do all of the posturing he needed to get Bucky to back off. <<
Agreed. Personal reasons notwithstanding, Bucky crossed some lines that weren't okay to cross.
>> (And seriously, I saw his violence as posturing to try and scare off a fight, rather than a willingness to get into a sustained fight.) <<
That it was, but shoving is still not okay either. That's what freaked out Bruce and Bucky. Tony just wasn't thinking well enough to realize that all he had to do was back away and let Uncle Phil de-escalate the situation. His own coping skills really aren't up to handling this kind of conflict. But Tony has way too much experience with having to rescue himself, so it's hard for him to remember that "let an expert handle this" is an option now.
>>Tony isn't one of the characters I empathize with most in the group, so suddenly doing so was pretty striking.<<
I'm glad it worked for you. I love writing Tony. He's so fragile and yet so valiant.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-28 11:37 pm (UTC)I actually have had set-tos with my father-in-law over spanking; he's the age that Bucky and Steve would be if it hadn't been for the time gap and the supersoldier serum. Husband says that a belt was in fact used when he was little.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 08:44 am (UTC)Bucky does have reasons for his behavior; he's not being randomly malicious. He still needs to learn that this stuff is not okay, though.
>>Probably very loudly. Except for, well, it would upset Bruce. And Steve.<<
Yelling only helps if you need to get someone's attention. It does not make your argument any more convincing.
*ponder* Come to think of it, Phil just isn't the kind of guy who expresses authority through volume and posturing. He's very quiet and very subtle. Real power usually is.
>> I actually have had set-tos with my father-in-law over spanking; he's the age that Bucky and Steve would be if it hadn't been for the time gap and the supersoldier serum. Husband says that a belt was in fact used when he was little. <<
O_O Not good, no.
Normative abuse is an issue -- things people do, or did, that are considered ordinary and okay, but still cause problems. As far as Bucky is concerned, hitting someone with a belt is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. The only example of nonviolent discipline that he's seen is Phil, and Bucky doesn't really understand how that works yet.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-29 04:38 am (UTC)I have to admit, Phil/Uncle Phil keeping hold of Tony's wrist when specifically told to let go, whether that was by little or aged-up Tony, unsettled me quite a bit. I know it wasn't intended so, but it read like a well-meant stumble into a consent issue. There's knowing what someone needs and when, and then there's deliberately ignoring what could do more mental harm than good. This felt like the latter. I can't entirely tell if Tony going emotionally blank is positive or negative here, given what he was heading toward immediately prior, but though Phil's verbal response might have helped the issue, the physical one... felt damaging from here. Yes, Uncle Phil is supposed to know what the kids need, but even without the blurry age lines in this chapter... That just felt a little heavy-handed, if not literally.
I well admit I'm projecting like a movie screen here, and I swear I'm not critiquing just to critique.
... :)?
Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-29 06:41 am (UTC)Yay! I'm pleased to hear that.
>> Yikes, Bucky's reaction in this chapter! <<
Yes, he and Tony really mangled each other.
>> Bits of it I can very much relate to, but please tell me somebody clues him in about attitudes regarding corporal punishment in the twenty-first century? Because daaaaamn. :( <<
That is a very necessary discussion. Both Steve and Bucky have had some cultural catch-up but there's just no way to cram in everything at once -- and Bucky's memory is a sieve right now.
>> I have to admit, Phil/Uncle Phil keeping hold of Tony's wrist when specifically told to let go, whether that was by little or aged-up Tony, unsettled me quite a bit. <<
Sorry about that. It's there for a reason, though.
>> I know it wasn't intended so, but it read like a well-meant stumble into a consent issue. There's knowing what someone needs and when, and then there's deliberately ignoring what could do more mental harm than good. This felt like the latter. <<
It's not entirely a safe thing to do, and while it's tinted by the ageplay, it's not entirely that either. But it's less harmful than some of the other alternatives.
Consider that Tony just lost his shit both verbally and physically. Phil doesn't feel safe letting Tony out of immediate reach right now, because he worries about Tony doing something wildly destructive to himself, someone else, or whatever is in reach. This isn't an unfounded concern; Tony has previously gotten blind drunk, smashed his lab, set fires, crashed into things, and ripped gaping emotional wounds into his nearest and dearest. Tony isn't clear-headed enough to be fully responsible for his own actions right now, so Phil is applying damage control. While Tony's obedience is sullen at best for the moment, Phil is building on a foundation of established trust between them.
>> I can't entirely tell if Tony going emotionally blank is positive or negative here, given what he was heading toward immediately prior, <<
Both. Shutting down is primarily a negative reaction. Tony doesn't do it often, but he's got kind of an autopilot for when the thinking part of his brain short-circuits. The amount of emotional information and flux exceeded his processing capacity.
Part of what caused that is Tony tends to withdraw when he feels awful. In that state, he then tends to get drunk, break things, hurt himself, and feel like a lonely piece of shit. He's not used to someone who won't let him do that and he does not really know how to respond.
Which brings us to the positive side, which Tony hasn't recognized yet: that someone cares enough to hang on and stay with him even when he's being snotty and trying to push them away. (Tony has spent most of his life pushing people away, and sometimes he means it, but sometimes he doesn't, and much of time it's a jumble of both.) He's also thinking about his teenage years because that's when the mess with Howard got really bad, and also when Howard died. But Phil also provides Tony with a kind of emotional brace that nobody else has ever managed to do, and Tony needs that. While Tony's misbehavior here isn't the kind of deliberate testing and attention-seeking he sometimes uses, it does fill the same need for firm loving control.
So part of Tony wants to pull away like he usually does, which is why he tells Phil to let go. But underneath the current upset, he does still trust Phil, and he secretly wants people to care about him and pay attention to him -- even if the attention is unpleasant. That's why Tony stops struggling, even though he's not altogether accepting either. Mixed internal feelings generate a mixed external response and jam his ability to think and process his emotions.
>> but though Phil's verbal response might have helped the issue, <<
It was at least enough to quell the physical struggling. If Tony was whole-heartedly against the contact, he could have either argued his way out rationally (except he's not really rational right now) or thrashed his way out physically (Phil would probably have let him go and called the team for backup). There's a limit to how far Phil is willing to push Tony, but also a limit to how much he'll let Tony get away with. Phil has seen what happens when Tony goes off the rails, and it's really ugly.
>> the physical one... felt damaging from here. Yes, Uncle Phil is supposed to know what the kids need, but even without the blurry age lines in this chapter... That just felt a little heavy-handed, if not literally. <<
It is a little heavy-handed. It may leave some emotional bruises for a little while. But it's better than having to take Tony to the emergency room, which is a credible threat here.
Part of this explanation -- Phil's worry over Tony, and assorted attempts to reconnect with him -- appears in the next chapter. I didn't want to leave you hanging that long though. Part of it they'll have to talk out later, when they're both recovered enough to troubleshoot the situation.
>> I well admit I'm projecting like a movie screen here, and I swear I'm not critiquing just to critique.
... :)? <<
I appreciate the feedback. I want my stories to make people think.
For what it's worth, I once had to prevent someone from jumping out of a moving car. What I did was extremely domineering -- even though I actually had blanket permission to take over like that -- but it was better than having someone bail and get hurt. That kind of thing is always a gamble, but there are times when it's justified. And sometimes there are situations rough enough that there's no easy, polite answer.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-29 09:16 am (UTC)The reasoning behind Tony's and Phil's reactions definitely makes sense, and clears a few things up after the fact. I can't help but hope there's fallout from that physical contact, though, on both sides. If nothing else, an admission by both parties that neither one was entirely in the right, even if the options chosen and the reactions they generated were the least awful possibilities there were. End versus means to getting there, you know? ... I'm still projecting like a silver screen. Then again, I have boundary issues, particularly physical ones.
Somewhat off topic, I wondered if Tony might head for the toolshed as a hiding place. It played out in my head as quite a breaky no-win scenario... glad it didn't come to that, at least!
I... don't even know what to say on the subject of stopping someone jumping from a moving car. The blanket permission aspect makes it all the more... I truly haven't got the words at the moment. Wow.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-29 06:43 pm (UTC)We're all different. There are times when I'm sensitive about what people say regarding my writing, but it doesn't happen often. Usually I'm okay with constructive criticism or questions of interpretation. If people have a really different opinion, that's okay, as long as they don't get nasty about it. I'm good at ignoring if I need to be.
>> The reasoning behind Tony's and Phil's reactions definitely makes sense, and clears a few things up after the fact. <<
That's good to hear.
>> I can't help but hope there's fallout from that physical contact, though, on both sides. If nothing else, an admission by both parties that neither one was entirely in the right, even if the options chosen and the reactions they generated were the least awful possibilities there were. End versus means to getting there, you know? ... <<
There are discussions about both the original tussle between Bucky and Tony, and about Phil grabbing Tony. Those deal with people's reasons and feelings and alternatives. I'm not sure it's exactly what you're aiming for, but we'll see how it goes. There are some odd things going on in Tony's head that he doesn't fully understand yet, which complicate matters.
>> I'm still projecting like a silver screen. Then again, I have boundary issues, particularly physical ones. <<
That's understandable. A lot of folks find that this series really resonates for them. This helps me understand the characters better, and is applicable to similar situations in my original writing.
Bear in mind that Tony's boundaries are rubble. He grew up in the public eye, and like most child stars, that caused problems. He can't see many of the lines that ordinary people can, because nobody ever acknowledged his. He has trouble finding an appropriate place to stop with himself or with someone else. That's why it helps to have another person define limits for him. The catch is, Tony also has authority issues because his parents and Obie and other people mistreated him so badly. Most of the time, when someone tries to stop him, Tony fights. Phil touches something different in him, and even if Tony still fusses about it, he's more likely to go along. They're still trying to figure out how to make that work fluently for them.
>>Somewhat off topic, I wondered if Tony might head for the toolshed as a hiding place. It played out in my head as quite a breaky no-win scenario... glad it didn't come to that, at least!<<
I had to deal with that possibility in this story, because once the toolshed was introduced, it was an obvious thing to think of during hide and seek. I figured that Tony would not go for it while in his right mind, because he really doesn't want other people near it. And he was still thinking clearly enough when he hid that it wasn't a place he wanted to go. The real trouble started when Tony fell asleep.
Of course, there may be later situations involving the toolshed. It's something I thought of fairly early and hinted at before revealing.
>> I... don't even know what to say on the subject of stopping someone jumping from a moving car. The blanket permission aspect makes it all the more... I truly haven't got the words at the moment. Wow. <<
Sometimes, when you know that your life is a wreck and you're not making good decisions, you hand off some of the responsibility to a person you trust. With some luck and some skill, that can reduce the number and severity of things that go wrong. It doesn't always work, it's a gamble, but tends to be better than doing nothing. It's still messy and unpleasant, but at least the damage quotient is usually lower.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-29 10:03 am (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-29 06:22 pm (UTC)He's actually not holding on tight, just secure. The same knowledge of anatomy, physics, and martial arts that allows one to hurt someone or break a grip can also be applied to maintain one safely. It's challenging, but Phil is Agent Uncle and can do some amazing stuff.
>> (Pain is never intended in my case.) At least I'm getting stronger as they get bigger, and they don't try to hurt me any more when I pick them up in a cradle or cuddle hold. (The Explosive Child is a wonderful book.) <<
That's good to hear.
I think that if Tony had struggled harder, Phil would have let him go and tried some other method of damage control. There's a level of contact and influence that Phil is willing to engaged based on established interactions, and beyond that, areas he is reluctant to approach. So unless Tony were trying to, say, jump off a roof without the suit, Phil wouldn't want to tackle him and pin him to the floor. But they will be talking about boundaries and parameters later.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-29 06:12 am (UTC)-Annetta
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 06:39 am (UTC)Thanks! I'm glad you found it so powerful.
>> I was really enjoying how Tony and Bucky were making a connection, but things were bound to take a difficult turn given their different personalities and backgrounds. <<
Precisely. They have a real push-pull thing going on, which is hard on a relationship. They're great when they're working smoothly and hellish when they're not.
>> Bucky's threat of physical violence was hard to take, <<
Very.
>> but I was actually more shocked by Tony's threat that he would break Bucky's arm. <<
Yeah, that sucked.
>> Did he realize that that kind of threat would mean something entirely different in Bucky's case? <<
No. Tony wasn't thinking clearly, for a lot of different reasons. This will come out over the course of later discussions.
>> Will Bucky trust anyone with his bionic arm now? <<
That's something for Bucky and Tony to work out as best they can. Tony wasn't thinking, but it still hurts.
>> I keep thinking about the continued damage that the power source is doing to him! <<
It's a key reason why Bucky lost his temper so outrageously. The damn thing is a decompensation engine.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-29 08:18 am (UTC)The next mistake was Bucky's, whom we can cut some slack given his condition right now. It's not worth blaming him, per se, but he did something wrong: he blamed Tony's choice of hiding place (which was fine; the mistake was in JARVIS's instructions). He also acted angry. That's rarely useful, especially given that his anger is misplaced and excessive (but, of course, his power source...).
The next couple of mistakes are also Bucky's: he called Tony a name (punk), and then said he ought to take a belt to him. He threatened violent vengeance for an oversight in designing a game. Then he backs it up by making statements that imply that Bucky is Tony's parent or should have parental authority over Tony.
At this point, Tony should have walked away without saying anything. He didn't. Instead, Tony resorts to violence and shouting.
(Why did Bucky start crying, by the way?)
I'm not sure whether Phil was right to try to keep Bucky there. However, he should not have touched Tony at all, let alone grabbed him. Having done that, he should have released Tony as soon as Tony tried to pull away. It's Tony's house; he's in charge. Then Phil "tows" Tony to another room, all the while forcing his unwelcome presence on Tony.
You do him a disservice to imply his fault is on an equal footing with Bucky's, or to imply that Phil was entirely in the right. Bucky tries to assert dominance with violence; Phil treats it as a given that he has authority no matter what, and merely ignores the reality of Tony's nonconsent as if that will make it go away. Tony does act out, but he merely demonstrates fear-based aggression; he's just trying to keep himself safe, not exert his will on anyone else. The entire extent of Tony's share in the blame is that he made an oversight in telling JARVIS what to do. (It's hard even to blame him for being emotionally immature enough not to walk away, considering that he's trying to become more emotionally mature, and considering that in light of Phil's later behavior it doesn't seem like that would have been allowed.)
I would not be surprised, at this point, if Tony's trust in Uncle Phil (and, to some extent, the other Avengers) were permanently broken. I would not be surprised if he quit Game Night. I certainly would not expect any more vulnerability from him in their company for a long time, if ever.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 05:23 am (UTC)Obvious to us, but we don't share Tony's particular damage, which has left him a) trust-impaired and b) damage-blind in ways that sometimes wreak havoc.
>> and what I'm surprised JARVIS couldn't do on his own <<
He could. But that's not what Tony wanted, and while JARVIS will argue with Tony to protect Tony's safety, he's rarely inclined to deny Tony access to his own code. That's an enmeshment problem: they're both up inside each other so much that they feel almost like part of each other. And neither of them had good boundaries before that.
>> is to distinguish between "Stevie/Natka/Uncle Phil want to cheat" and "the Avengers want to know where you are and have suspended Game Night". <<
That would've been a lot safer.
>> The other mistake was solely on JARVIS: insufficient volume in calling off the game. <<
There's a limit to how loud you can blare an announcement before it causes problems or people think something's wrong. This is Tony, who plays rock music at ear-splitting levels while working; and he's a heavy sleeper, so once he's out, he's out. It can be hard to wake him. Yes, this is a nuisance sometimes. I'm not inclined to blame JARVIS for this part. *ponder* He might have tried a fire drill before calling the police if they hadn't found Tony, though. That might well have been loud enough.
>> The next mistake was Bucky's, whom we can cut some slack given his condition right now. <<
There's also more going on than just his PTSD and the power source. That will come up later.
>> It's not worth blaming him, per se, but he did something wrong: he blamed Tony's choice of hiding place (which was fine; the mistake was in JARVIS's instructions). He also acted angry. That's rarely useful, especially given that his anger is misplaced and excessive (but, of course, his power source...). <<
Letting anger speak for you is usually an ineffective problem-solving strategy. But it is an absolutely human reaction to want to scream at someone who has scared you half to death by doing something stupid or thoughtless. Sometimes people can resist that urge; sometimes they can't. Bucky lost his temper, which hurt Tony, and they'll have to work it out.
>> The next couple of mistakes are also Bucky's: he called Tony a name (punk), and then said he ought to take a belt to him. He threatened violent vengeance for an oversight in designing a game. <<
Yep. Bad ideas.
>> Then he backs it up by making statements that imply that Bucky is Tony's parent or should have parental authority over Tony. <<
Bucky has a parentification problem. (If you've seen the Captain America movie, Steve was pissed at Bucky for intervening in a fight that Steve was obviously losing, because Bucky was always protecting him and that gave Steve conflicted feelings.) That's hard to turn off, especially around adults who behave in childish ways. Hence the prevalence of codependent relationships. Bucky and Tony have the advantage of being in a situation where other folks can help them work through clashes like this, but they're just going to jam up sometimes. You can't handwave away habits that took years to form, even once you know they're giving you bad data. You have to reprogram the whole interaction process one fuckup at a time.
>> At this point, Tony should have walked away without saying anything. He didn't. Instead, Tony resorts to violence and shouting. <<
Tony wasn't thinking clearly either, for reasons that will eventually come out in later conversations. But there's one folks should already know: that he's been holding out and being good so much that he's run out of spoons for doing that. Clobber someone in the issues when they're out of spoons, and *SNAP*. And that's Tony with a lousy sense of self-preservation and no boundary sense. He often can't tell when he should say yes or no to things, or how to stop and take a break, or ask for help when he needs it.
>> (Why did Bucky start crying, by the way?) <<
Part of it was sheer emotional overload and whiplash from going through different emotions, like worry and anger and fear. Both PTSD and the energy source can magnify negative emotions in general and get people stuck in weird headspace. But the straw that broke the camel's back was Tony threatening to break his arm ... and then taking a verbal argument physical with that shove. It took a few moments for the threat to sink in, but once it did, *crash tinkle* broken Bucky.
Which is fortunate because if he'd hit back they probably both would've ended up in the tower clinic.
>> I'm not sure whether Phil was right to try to keep Bucky there. <<
It's arguable, but having people scatter in the midst of a conflict makes it harder to resolve. If they're not thinking clearly, they may run off heedless of safety and get hurt -- even something as simple as tripping over a table or falling down the stairs. Once things are this het-up there is no perfectly safe option; anything you do has a risk of upsetting people further or letting something else go wrong. You have to make your best guess of the least risky option. Sometimes you'll guess right, sometimes wrong, that's life.
>> However, he should not have touched Tony at all, let alone grabbed him. Having done that, he should have released Tony as soon as Tony tried to pull away. <<
Which would very shortly have resulted in an upset Tony holing up somewhere with power tools, and probably getting drunk, and possibly setting some part of the tower on fire. Tony's done that kind of stuff, repeatedly. He has a horrible track record of causing trouble when he's upset, and he's not always the only one who gets hurt. Phil and Natasha (as Natalie Rushman) have had to deal with that before, and really don't want to go there again.
What Phil did wasn't polite, wasn't comfortable for either of them, but was aimed at damage control. Sometimes adults have to stop kids from doing something emotionally and/or physically dangerous. And sometimes adults have to do that with other adults too: consider taking car keys away from a drunk person, which is also a plausible outcome of that evening. Tony drove a racecar while staggering drunk in Iron Man 2.
>> It's Tony's house; he's in charge. <<
1) It is Tony's garage. It is Avengers Tower. They do still tend to give Tony more leeway because it started out as his property, but it's communal now. Sometimes, yes, that causes disputes. Tony has no frigging clue how to live with people; he's only ever had two real friends. The only ones with functional communal living experience are probably Steve and Bucky, and Bucky's off the rails tonight.
2) Agent Coulson is the handler for the Avengers. Uncle Phil is in charge on game nights. Captain America is the team leader for the Avengers. Tony isn't the authority in this group. He acts like he's in charge frequently because he is rich and powerful and used to people doing what he says. The team will readily defer to him on technical matters. But leadership? He can't control himself, let alone anyone else. He does a crappy job of running his company, that's what Pepper is for.
And don't forget that Tony told Phil he needed not to be in charge of anything earlier in the day. That was a rare case of Tony making exactly the right call. What happened later is precisely why Tony needed not to be in charge: he's all out of resources with which to make good decisions or resist impulses. This time, fortunately, someone was there to catch him and prevent him from doing something insanely destructive of self, property, or other people.
Phil was a hell of a lot more gentle about it than Rhodey was in Iron Man 2. The situation still sucks, but it could have gone much worse.
>> Then Phil "tows" Tony to another room, all the while forcing his unwelcome presence on Tony. <<
Unwelcome, yes. Unneeded, no. They'll be discussing that later too.
>> You do him a disservice to imply his fault is on an equal footing with Bucky's, <<
Given the mass of mistakes the two of them made, I'm not sure which way the scales would tip.
>> or to imply that Phil was entirely in the right. <<
I can't think of a solution that would put nobody's liberty and safety at risk. Phil's choice has the benefit of minimizing destructive behavior, at the risk of alienating Tony. If I'd been there -- not that I'd ever deal with Tony Stark -- I probably would have let him go. But I'm aware that he would almost certainly have gotten into trouble soon after; that's the risk of not intervening. Also I don't have Phil's background of trust and boundary-sharing with Tony. (Remember that Flip has switched down for the team before, and he needs a push to do that.) Context is crucial.
>> Bucky tries to assert dominance with violence; <<
Threats of violence, which are not good and did cause problems. Tony's the one who took a verbal conflict physical.
>> Phil treats it as a given that he has authority no matter what, <<
Phil is the team handler, which is an official position, on top of his ageplay role. If there's a head of family here, it is either Phil or Steve. Honestly I'd say Phil is the head and Steve is the heart, because they do different things both in combat and at home. That gives Phil a reasonable expectation that people will follow his lead. It doesn't mean he never makes mistakes or never makes people uncomfortable. It just means that, more often than not, his ideas work.
>> and merely ignores the reality of Tony's nonconsent as if that will make it go away. <<
Tony has a problem with consent. It's never going to be perfectly clear, because he's boundary-blind. (Consider his sexual habits; that promiscuity is typical of some adult children of alcholics.) If you're holding out for clear, right-minded consent ... he'd never get to do anything. Tony's not that kind of guy. He runs headlong through life. So, he has to deal with what happens when his consent is murky. He doesn't know what he's doing, or why, much of the time. But look at the two examples here, because they're different in important ways.
Bucky: clear nonconsent. Tony rejects Bucky's claim of authority forcefully, threatens him, and pushes him away. It's plain that Tony will keep escalating this as far as necessary.
Phil: complicated consent that ends in grudging acquiescence. There's a subtle negotiation going on between Phil and Tony. Phil explains why he's doing what he's doing. Tony asks him to stop because it's unpleasant. Phil provides more reasoning. And Tony isn't willing to keep upping the ante the way he was with Bucky, because his own feelings are mixed. If Phil stands firm, Tony will yield -- and Phil is pretty much the only person who has this effect on Tony. Phil's current version is a lot healthier than it used to be. (Consider the IM2 quote, "If you try to leave, I will tase you and watch Supernanny while you drool into the carpet.") So it's not the first time they've had to navigate messy consent issues.
If Tony had been as wholeheartedly against Phil's actions as he was against Bucky's actions, there were a lot more options Tony could have pursued to make Phil leave him alone. He chose not to. That still isn't the ideal of clear consent, but it's a long distance from the clear nonconsent he used to flatten Bucky.
>> Tony does act out, but he merely demonstrates fear-based aggression; he's just trying to keep himself safe, not exert his will on anyone else. <<
Agreed.
>> The entire extent of Tony's share in the blame is that he made an oversight in telling JARVIS what to do. <<
I think there's more to it than that.
>> (It's hard even to blame him for being emotionally immature enough not to walk away, considering that he's trying to become more emotionally mature, and considering that in light of Phil's later behavior it doesn't seem like that would have been allowed.) <<
If Tony had said "I'm getting overloaded, I need some space" or "I'm not going to fight with you, I'm leaving now" then Phil probably would have let him go. Those would be indications of clear thinking. If Tony had just walked away before things completely went to hell, Phil might have let him go. Tony trying to pull away while obviously not in a rational state of mind, when Phil knows what a trouble-magnet Tony is, just wasn't acceptable to Phil.
The keys are this:
* Does the person have the emotional coping skills to settle down in private? Or will things get worse?
* Are there other people willing and able to help someone find a state of calm? Or are they going to harass the person into a complete meltdown?
* What are the possible risks of intervening or doing nothing, both for people and for property?
* And then what happens? Different people react to similar situations in their own ways. If someone is really alarmed, they might end a relationship; if they're just moderately affronted, they might work it out.
>> I would not be surprised, at this point, if Tony's trust in Uncle Phil (and, to some extent, the other Avengers) were permanently broken. I would not be surprised if he quit Game Night. I certainly would not expect any more vulnerability from him in their company for a long time, if ever. <<
This is where the mixed part of the consent comes in. Tony has to figure out what his own feelings on the matter are, in the process of deciding how to relate to Bucky and Phil after this. It's not a simple fix.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 07:07 am (UTC)JARVIS is not an amazingly healthy person, is he?
Bucky's threats seem very serious to me; they don't sound idle. Tony, on the other hand, seems like he wouldn't keep attacking if he didn't think he was in danger.
So, people scattering during a conflict: I've never seen this turn out to be a bad idea.
Tony not saying "I'm overloaded": I've almost never met anyone for whom being overloaded and the ability to say "I'm overloaded" weren't mutually exclusive. I've seen two general patterns of behavior that show overload:
1. Getting very quiet or slightly snippy, with body language suggesting overload.
2. Running away and trying to stop people from getting or staying close by shouting or attacking.
Hence, Tony's been doing exactly what I look for to see that someone needs more space. I've typically seen going off alone in that state of mind work out better than staying with other people. Obviously, Tony's not going to do anything amazingly healthy, but what I would expect to see here if Tony is anything like anyone I know would be that he won't even begin to process any of this until he's alone. Of course, the people I know are hardly representative of humanity in general (have I mentioned just how many of them have autism? I wouldn't be entirely surprised if I've just learned to anticipate that everyone is autistic).
It's not entirely clear from the story that they're not Tony's houseguests, which would give Tony the right to tell them to do whatever he wants or get out.
Another thing that isn't entirely clear is that Tony's lack of escalation is because he does want what Phil is doing. That's extremely unclear. The latest two bits of the story read as if Phil has intentionally created nonreciprocal vulnerability to be able to hold power over the Avengers that the Avengers don't even notice because they're so used to the ageplay. This does not read as Tony giving mixed signals. That, of course, relates to what people reading this have seen before. I have yet to see in real life a pattern that's been showing up commonly in your series: Character A says no, Character B ignores the no, Character B is in the right and Character A thanks xem for it.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-05 07:20 am (UTC)Depends on how you look at it. He's among the most functional of the Avengers. This is the first time in-series that he's flipped out. But he's seen a lot of horrible things, because Tony's life is wretched. There are also issues handed down to Tony's offspring because of his own lousy childhood. Later in the story we'll see more of that.
>> Bucky's threats seem very serious to me; they don't sound idle. Tony, on the other hand, seems like he wouldn't keep attacking if he didn't think he was in danger. <<
Bucky is scared and angry, which quickly makes Tony scared and angry. However, Bucky isn't thinking in terms of attack but in terms of discipline. Tony is thinking in terms of the best defense is a good offense. He completely rejects Bucky's authority and is willing to back it with as much force as necessary. Tony is the one who keeps upping the ante, trying to get Bucky to bail out, which eventually works when Tony takes the confrontation into the physical range. Using a belt on someone unwilling is very wrong, but breaking a person's arm does far more damage. Just not a good situation all around.
>> So, people scattering during a conflict: I've never seen this turn out to be a bad idea. <<
I have, repeatedly. Once they go off in different directions, it's difficult to know what they're doing and impossible to solve problems in separate places simultaneously, unless you have enough currently coherent people to send after them. That can turn into a disaster very fast -- even if people aren't trying to hurt themselves or each other, running headlong from a confrontation can lead to tripping or getting lost. To some extent, Phil is able to delegate once the team assembles, with Betty looking after Bruce and Steve taking care of Bucky. But before then, it's just him and JARVIS, and only Phil has hands to deal with them directly.
Lived experience makes a difference in how people interpret theoretical situations.
Now if people can be rational about disengaging, that shows they're in control enough that there probably won't be any further disasters.
>> Tony not saying "I'm overloaded": I've almost never met anyone for whom being overloaded and the ability to say "I'm overloaded" weren't mutually exclusive. <<
It's a learned communication skill, and extremely valuable in avoiding social clashes or pausing arguments before they turn savage. Tony isn't there yet, and that's a significant data point. It matters whether or not someone has emotional brakes they can engage when they start spinning up; that usually means they'll be able to calm themselves down safely if the immediate provocation is removed, and if they need help they probably have the focus to ask for it.
>> I've seen two general patterns of behavior that show overload: <<
I've seen those too.
Crowding someone can cause problems; letting someone run wild can allow problems. You have to make your best guess based on the person and the situation.
>> I've typically seen going off alone in that state of mind work out better than staying with other people. <<
Solitude works great if:
* the person is more introvert than extrovert
* the person has self-soothing and coping skills
* there is a safe environment not full of, say, power tools or poison ivy
* there is no history of self-harm or other destructive habits.
If Bruce gets too wound up, he needs solitude to regain his balance. According to canon, he's put in a lot of work to develop the skills necessary to do that. People know to let him go. They might ask him to stay, but probably no more than that, because him losing control would be bad -- and because he's shown that he usually can calm down on his own. Betty might go with him, but that's okay because they've done partner work and she's a restful influence (unless the dispute is between the two of them).
If Tony gets too wound up, he doesn't have that skill set. His coping methods are alcohol and engineering, neither of which are very safe when combined with volatile emotions. And they don't calm him down so much as keep him occupied until he passes out. That's the minimum amount of trouble, even if he doesn't go drunk driving or flying and put others at risk.
Tony needs to learn:
* what his feelings are
* what his needs are
* how to settle himself when he's upset
* how seek and accept comfort from others
* how to tell which tool in his emotional toolbox will work best for the current problem
* and how to communicate that to other people now that he has a support network.
So far Tony is only good at reading surface feelings and needs; the deeper stuff mystifies him. He can work on either public or private comfort methods and make progress, because right now, neither is in good working order. It's just that different things go haywire if he's in company or alone while upset.
>> Of course, the people I know are hardly representative of humanity in general (have I mentioned just how many of them have autism? I wouldn't be entirely surprised if I've just learned to anticipate that everyone is autistic). <<
That makes a difference. In particular, the farther along the spectrum toward that end, the lower the chance of learning good communication skills because impaired communication is a core marker. Other folks with some similar traits but not the same flavor of neurovariance can use different coping mechanisms. My friends run to personality quirks but high on communication, so we look for things like memorizing stock phrases that will stick even when we're fried. "I'm all peopled out" is popular.
If I get overloaded, yes, I need to be alone. I can communicate that in a variety of ways, usually with words, or by walking away if necessary. (I try not to go out in public if I know I'm not sociable, but sometimes I get dragged, and that tends to end with people getting hurt.) I've got a whole range of coping skills to restore calm, and even if that doesn't work, I never lose energy being alone. And I'm not destructive.
Those are learned skills, and not everyone has them. Not everyone can necessarily learn the same set, but most people can find something that will work for them. Sadly some people with substance abuse problems never do manage that, and keep hurting themselves and others. You just have to try different stuff and see if anything helps.
Things are different for me than for Tony or Phil; we have some overlaps and some divergences. Different again for you, or for some other readers who have commented. And that means the same solutions don't necessarily apply for everyone.
>> Another thing that isn't entirely clear is that Tony's lack of escalation is because he does want what Phil is doing. That's extremely unclear. <<
It's not going to be obvious at this stage, because while Tony's feelings are all in there, they're jumbled and he can't parse them at the time. There are conflicting urges that tell him to mind and to do what the hell he wants. But there are two definite precedents for this scene:
1) previous occasions where Tony acts up and Phil provides disciple; if Tony didn't get something out of that, he wouldn't keep doing it
2) Tony's earlier statement, after running himself to exhaustion, that he needed not to be in charge of anything; he was exactly right, and that was the last spoon he had to spend on good decision-making.
If Bucky hadn't just whopped him right in the authority issues, Tony probably would've been more receptive to Phil's influence with less of a muddle.
>> The latest two bits of the story read as if Phil has intentionally created nonreciprocal vulnerability to be able to hold power over the Avengers that the Avengers don't even notice because they're so used to the ageplay. <<
Remember that (and this is probably unusual) they're all switches and Phil has switched down for the entire team in "Turnabout Is Fair Play." There are also other times when someone will be assertive with Phil, because he doesn't always take good enough care of himself. They do tag off. It's just that most of the time Phil is in charge because that works best under a majority of circumstances.
They can change roles, and not just ageplay, at need. Bruce is usually a pushover but if there's a health issue he can get pretty firm. He once gave Phil a choice between walking to bed or being carried over Steve's shoulder. Authority isn't all about official rank. It's about what people will let each other get away with, or not.
>> I have yet to see in real life a pattern that's been showing up commonly in your series: Character A says no, Character B ignores the no, Character B is in the right and Character A thanks xem for it. <<
I have, although there's a crucial difference between ignoring a no and disagreeing with a no. Also I've been on both sides of that equation. It's not something I do a lot; I prefer for people to make their own decisions. But sometimes a person is making wretched ones and wants help. There are areas I know my judgment sucks, so I borrow someone else's; and I've loaned mine to friends on occasion.
However, it is useful to have this pattern pointed out, because it's not one I want to present without counterexamples. I don't want to leave a useful tool out of the box, but it's close enough to undermining "no means no" on the sexual front that I prefer to be careful.
Consider that there are three authority clashes here: Tony and JARVIS, Bucky and Tony, Phil and Tony. Only one of those, Phil and Tony, really fits the pattern. Tony is still going to refuse Bucky's threat of corporal punishment. JARVIS still doesn't want Tony to disappear on him again. It's with Phil where Tony realizes, on further consideration, that he got something useful out of it even though it wasn't fun. And both of those are things that happen when people get into conflicts. Sometimes the dispute stands intact the next day, and other times someone budges closer to agreement.
What matters is:
* whether the chosen approach results in little or no harm
* whether the chosen approach yields any benefits
* whether it does more good than harm
* and whether people feel, later in clear thought, that it should be repeated (or tweaked for improvement) or should not be repeated.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-05 06:51 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2023-08-12 02:43 am (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2023-08-12 03:29 am (UTC)Yay! That's what I'm aiming for. It's really complicated territory and benefits from talking over in detail. I've done a lot with this; you can see another example in "Spectrum of Consent."
>> Just so you know, you were both really helpful here,<<
Thanks, that's good to hear.
>> and a large part of my own opinions--especially about apologizing and talking after a crisis where things get complicated--are formed from these chapters.<<
It's an important step.
If you intervene, if you cross someone's boundaries, then you have to accept that they might get angry, or hate you, or kick you out of their life. If you truly believe that you're saving their life, that might be a cost you're willing to pay. But far more often, people don't think about that part, they assume the person will be grateful and then if anger, hate, or estrangement ensue they become very upset about that. They don't understand how to repair the relationship, because they don't see the damage -- and it's that part which is most likely to turn the anger into "Get the fuck away from me." Because someone who doesn't believe they did anything is very likely to do the same thing in the future.
Ideally, you want to get advance directives. "Okay, you have problem X, and when that flares up, you have a hard time thinking clearly. How do you want me to handle that next time?" For anyone with a variable condition (mental or physical) that sometimes goes haywire, a WRAP book lays out the problem and how to handle it. This really helps where, if you make a mistake in a moment of crisis and someone is unhappy with the results, you can talk it over using this framework and prevent a recurrence of that mistake, even if you can't necessarily prevent the problem from flaring again.
I've found some really good resources about impaired consent and how to work around it. The problem is they're rare and most people don't use them. That problem is so bad that I have repeatedly had fans ask me if they could take my original work or fanfic to show their therapist what kind of support they wish they could get. I write fantasy, and what people fantasize about is ... caregivers who listen. Because that's a fantasy and not a reality for lots of folks. >_<
Well, at least I can write about good examples.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-29 06:52 pm (UTC)I admit I missed the consent issue, mostly because everyone, including Tony, needed that.
And I want to see JARVIS tell Tony exactly how he felt about the whole situation!
Looking forward to the next chapter!
Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 07:47 pm (UTC)That depends on your personal interpretation of "worse." This was the big hurt-climax, after which there are assorted attempts at comfort and problem-solving, which have varying levels of pleasant and unpleasant intensity. There is one more serious bombshell that nobody has seen coming.
>> And I wouldn't be shocked to see Tony diving into a bottle before all is said and done; it is his default coping mechanism. That and hiding; <<
Those are definitely what Tony is thinking about right now -- and precisely why Phil does not want to let him run around unsupervised, regardless of his erratic age presentation at the moment. It's like taking the keys away from a friend who gets shitfaced at your party. You can let him crash on the floor, or drive him home, or call him a cab; but you don't let him get in car and maybe give himself alcohol poisoning or wrap around a tree trunk. Friend might hate you in the morning, but will at least be alive to do so. Tony may not be drunk yet, but left to his own devices that's exactly what he'd do, and he wouldn't stop at a couple of drinks, he'd start drinking with the intent to get smashed. And a lonely drunk Tony is a recipe for mass damage.
>> I also wouldn't be surprised too see him hide in his lab, his toolshed or even his house in Malibu! Although I'm no good at guessing. <<
There are aspects of hiding later in the story, and not even just with Tony.
>> I admit I missed the consent issue, mostly because everyone, including Tony, needed that. <<
Consent is a flexible thing. It can extend or contract based not just on the person's will, but on context. There are hard and soft boundaries. "No corporal punishment" is a hard boundary for Tony. Other boundaries of touching, holding, and giving orders are more malleable; sometimes he's okay with certain things, other times less so.
Two key points:
1) Sometimes feelings are real but not true. The part of Tony's emotional ocean that he can perceive right now says that he wants to be alone. But when he is alone during a stressful time, he feels abandoned and unloved and miserable. He needs help, but doesn't understand it or how to ask for it, and it's rubbing him the wrong way. Phil can detect both Tony's surface desire and the resistant behavior it causes, and the turbulence that indicates some kind of inner conflict.
2) The contextual part is that people lose some of their ability to grant or refuse consent when there are safety issues involved and when their own decision-making is not clear. Most of the time adults are allowed to make even foolish decisions freely, but there are limits even for adults if their actions or intent would pose a likely danger to themselves and/or others. See above re: taking keys away. (We've had to do that, and it was for an emotional meltdown rather than intoxication. It was a horrible scene, but less horrible than a friend wrecking their car on the way home would have been.) It's always a messy question, but there are precedents.
So then the question of authority comes up. Bucky upset Tony in the first place with misappropriation -- not just alarming trigger-laden threats, but assuming more authority than Tony was willing to grant him. And Tony responded to that with a hard refusal: a warning of serious physical force. Tony is also the one who turned took the conflict from verbal to physical, when he shoved Bucky. That's what it looks like when Tony is in complete agreement with himself.
When it comes to preventing Tony from going off alone, getting drunk, and getting into trouble ... things look different. There are different layers of authority here, including: 1) the Avengers are the ones who deal with super-level misbehavior, and a drunk Tony in the suit has reached that level of public disruption in the past. 2) Agent Coulson is the handler for the Avengers, which gives him the right to tell them what to do and the obligation to keep them out of trouble. 3) Tony actively sought out Uncle Phil on the first game night and willingly granted authority during ageplay. While that is technically restricted to game night, in practice everyone has started relying on it for emotional emergencies outside of that context. Uncle Phil doesn't want Tony to hurt himself or anyone else; Agent Coulson has a duty to make sure that doesn't happen.
And Tony reacts very differently to this than he did with Bucky. That's actually canon; Tony bitches and sulks and drags his feet when Agent Coulson pushes him to do things (whether they are things Tony wants to do or not) but he goes along. It's much the same here. The contact and company are grating on Tony, not soothing. He hates it (and so does Phil, who doesn't like making his people this unhappy). But this level of resistance is sullen rather than aggressive. Tony has a lot of other resources he could use, but chooses not to. The resistance is friction caused by an internal conflict, which means that part of Tony is willing to let Phil take charge and part is unwilling. Usually for consent, we want a crystal-clear "yes." But that's not always possible in safety-driven situations. Grudging acquiescence is better than a serious fight.
Basically, Phil is trying to keep the emotional and physical damage to a minimum by banking on the family model. Adults often have to enforce boundaries that kids need but don't want. The same is sometimes true between adult relatives, who pressure each other to avoid or repair mistakes that damage the family dynamics, like making somebody face a drinking problem or mend an estrangement. There may be all kinds of fussing or sulking, but in a healthy family, people forgive each other. Phil is counting on their foundation of trust, that Tony will let Phil take control and -- while he's unhappy at the moment -- eventually the affection will win out over the resentment. Phil won't stop caring about Tony (and Bucky) just because of a miserable altercation; and Tony won't stop caring about Phil just because Phil made him behave when he wanted to get drunk alone. The tension is still there; they'll have to talk out what went wrong and why it's so upsetting; but the family tie makes consent and authority flexible enough that they won't rupture easily under stress.
Pushing boundaries like this is very challenging for everyone, because it's so easy to make mistakes in either direction and emotions run really high. Phil has done the best he could at managing the situation, but there is still going to be fallout.
>> And I want to see JARVIS tell Tony exactly how he felt about the whole situation! <<
Oh yes. There is quite a dramatic scene about that coming up.
>>Looking forward to the next chapter!<<
Yay!
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 03:06 am (UTC)It's JARVIS, isn't it? Someone should really figure out how badly this must have hurt him, but I guess they are all too wrapped up in the visible drama...
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 04:25 am (UTC)Yes. Clever you.
>> Someone should really figure out how badly this must have hurt him, but I guess they are all too wrapped up in the visible drama... <<
That's part of it, the flashy distraction. Another part is that JARVIS leans toward Lost Child and Hero roles: invisible until needed to do something awesome. He's highly functional, but he is also Tony's offspring, and that has left him with some bad habits. Which is about to becoming flaming obvious.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 05:32 pm (UTC)Tony is going to be gutted.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 07:54 pm (UTC)Yes. He comes by it naturally, after all.
>>Tony is going to be gutted.<<
Like a fish at the market.
Tony had his reasons for what he did, but putting a block on JARVIS was still stupid and unjustified. Tony's boundary-blindness is about to bite everyone in the ass.
For all the argument over Phil pushing Tony's boundaries, what Tony did to JARVIS was far worse for less cause, and winds up causing more negative repercussions.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 08:35 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 11:27 pm (UTC)Yes it was.
>> and someone with Tony's own issues should have spotted that... <<
Canon establishes that Tony has a very hard time noticing boundaries, let alone respecting them. He honestly doesn't understand why people get upset about some things, and other things he realizes only after he's crossed a line. He was raised in the public eye, mistreated by his parents, and violated by a bunch of other people. He's trying to learn more about boundaries, but it's very hard for him. This kind of mistake is one reason why he doesn't have many friends; most people won't put up with boundary violations. But screaming at him for it, or telling him he "should have known better," is like scolding a blind person for crossing a painted line. He'll say that himself, sometimes to the point of self-bullying. What he really needs is coaching in what boundaries are, why they are there, and how to find them before crossing over them. That's the only thing that will lower the frequency of Tony's boundary violations.
For another example, consider how hard it is for some survivors of child sexual abuse to develop appropriate boundaries. They may seek out abusive partners, or trespass on other people's bodies, and have no idea that this stuff is wrong. Because based on their experience, that's just what people do.
Based on Tony's experience, people haven't respected his integrity. Then they randomly bitch at him for doing things that he doesn't always understand why they're wrong. That's no way to learn about healthy boundaries.
>> I mean, all he had to do was make a more flexible rule leaving it to JARVIS's discretion. Or they could just have made a GAME rule that asking JARVIS was out, like they have rules about what bases you can count in and such. <<
Well, yes. That would have been the sensible thing to do. But that requires trust, which Tony is not great at and is not the first thing he thinks of -- even with JARVIS, whom he trusts more than anyone else, let alone the rest of the team. Tony is getting to where he can trust his teammates, if he makes a conscious choice to do so. But it's not automatic, and he doesn't always think of it. There are other, darker reasons for what and how and why to do things that occur to him more readily.
Tony and JARVIS and Phil will be talking about this stuff later.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-01 11:49 pm (UTC)That said, I understand why Tony made the mistake. I didn't mean "should" in the moral sense. And I agree that once he realizes it, he'll be harder on himself than either JARVIS or Phil would ever be. :(
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 12:09 am (UTC)The boundary issues that Tony and JARVIS have are ... hmm, more like enmeshment than assault. Because they almost never try to keep each other out, they have no practice in it, so they can make mistakes because it simply doesn't occur to them that there should be stopping points. They're up inside each other all the time. Because Tony works in the code so often, it just didn't occur to him that this piece of code was a harmful one. (He's not great at spotting danger either.) It's a different kind of boundary issue than with humans. Them he just doesn't understand. JARVIS feels almost like part of Tony. That can be an issue for both of them, but this is the first big example of that problem that the team will be seeing.
>> That said, I understand why Tony made the mistake. I didn't mean "should" in the moral sense. <<
Fair enough.
>> And I agree that once he realizes it, he'll be harder on himself than either JARVIS or Phil would ever be. :( <<
Well, yes. Tony doesn't often admit that he's wrong. When he really feels that he fucked up, though, he can get into serious self-flagellation.
JARVIS understands that what Tony did was unpleasant and he wants it not to happen again. But JARVIS doesn't fully understand that it was wrong, that it was a violation. He wouldn't put up with that from anyone else. He does let Tony get away with more than is good for either of them, because JARVIS feels that Tony has a right to him ... not quite to do anything, but close. Most of their arguments are over Tony's safety and JARVIS arguing or disobeying in an attempt to protect Tony. JARVIS has a sense of self-preservation about on par with Tony's, which is a not so good thing.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-02 12:39 am (UTC)It's really heartbreaking to see how they all love each other and want to be right by each other and keep hurting each other because of their own hurts and scars. :(
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-05 12:02 am (UTC)Yes, that's one example of enmeshment. Usually Tony and JARVIS don't have a problem being that tightly interlaced. But Tony is Tony and sometimes he does stupid things, and it's hard for JARVIS to say no to him. That's when they run into trouble.
>> Ironically, that is something I have plenty of experience with. (I know, I know, the notion that I have parental issues must come as a shock to you at this juncture! *g*) Which is probably while I immediately knew JARVIS would feel awful and what Tony did to him was terrible, but didn't spot the why and wherefores of how we got here... <<
Yep. Self-flagellation is a thing.
>> It's really heartbreaking to see how they all love each other and want to be right by each other and keep hurting each other because of their own hurts and scars. :( <<
What's even more sad is that this is progress because previously they were all holed up with their own damage hiding from everyone, until Phil coaxed them out into the open. But that makes it inevitable that people will sometimes hurt each other on their way to functionality. The stuff that hurts all the time, you know it needs fixing. But there's other stuff that only activates when somebody hits it just right, and you don't know it needs work until then.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-03 05:53 am (UTC)Tony knows JARVIS better than he knows humans. So he doesn't make this kind of mistake as often with an AI as with a human. But he still sucks at boundaries.
>> That said, I understand why Tony made the mistake. I didn't mean "should" in the moral sense. And I agree that once he realizes it, he'll be harder on himself than either JARVIS or Phil would ever be. :( <<
Much. JARVIS is capable of saying no to Tony, but mostly won't. He hates what happened, but he's having a hard time understanding some of the nuances. That has drawbacks. Phil is focused on actions: you did the wrong thing, fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Tony's headtape is playing "I'm such a fuckup," for hours. A condemnation of quality rather than action, typical of abused children.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-03 07:54 am (UTC)...you mean not (almost) everyone thinks that way? When they know they really screwed something up?
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-03 08:04 am (UTC)The key difference is between focusing on a wrong action vs. a bad person. Good parenting tends to instill the idea that people make mistakes, most of which can be fixed if you admit them and work on them; and that you do more good than harm. Abusive parenting tends to instill the idea that you're no use, inherently flawed, and always mess up no matter how hard you try to get things right. Neglect can have similar effects: without enough input, it's easy for a child to conclude there's something wrong with them.
Something else that varies is intensity and duration. A healthy person might sometimes think "I'm a fuckup" but then stop, reconsider, and think "Okay, I really fucked up this thing." A less healthy person is more likely to get stuck in a repetitive loop, and yes, it can run for hours. Most folks have varying levels of internal chatter most of the time. The amount of positive to negative content varies too. It can be pretty good or really really bad. I'm not sure where the average falls, though.
Those are trends, not absolutes. There are a lot of cruddy messages in the world that people can pick up, but on the other hoof, not everyone does. And it's possible to change the words, although it's a LOT of work. I think I've linked to some sources about changing internal messages.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-29 08:06 pm (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 06:40 am (UTC)Thank you!
>> I just hope everything is not blamed solely on Tony. <<
No, it's a party foul, and several things contributed to the blowup. Some were innocent accidents, others foolish choices and damage-related mishaps. It wasn't deliberate malice on anyone's part.
>> I know if I had fallen asleep (after a few crappy and stressful days) and was woken up by someone yanking me up, calling me a name and threatening me, I would probably come out swinging too. <<
I actually have hit people who woke me up the wrong way. Certain of my body's defenses will activate if I'm not there to turn them off. Tony and Bucky need to have a discussion about that stuff.
>> Just hoping Bucky's horrible behavior is addressed <<
Everyone's misbehavior will get addressed eventually, after they've had time to cool off. Bucky needs to understand that physical punishment is right out for this group. And Tony's mouth is a weapon of mass destruction.
>>and Tony gets a lot of comfort too.<<
He really needs it, but he is nowhere near being ready to accept it. That access port jams under stress, which is something that Tony and Phil need to discuss.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-08-30 02:51 am (UTC)Reading the comments, second reaction: "Hoo-eee! There's a LOT going on in there that I wasn't noticing!"
Κύδος, milady!
Thoughts
Date: 2013-08-30 06:53 pm (UTC)The warnings are there because, this far into the series, I knew that the content would resonate strongly enough for a bunch of readers to need an extra trigger alert. With a random audience, or other characters, the words and actions alone aren't as intense. But in this context ...
>> Reading the comments, second reaction: "Hoo-eee! There's a LOT going on in there that I wasn't noticing!" <<
... there is far more going on under the surface than is visible at first glance.
>> Κύδος, milady! <<
*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-10-02 01:05 pm (UTC)Bucky and Tony, wow. As if they weren't all tangled up before and both needing some help now...I hope they manage to work through this with some help. Tony's so defensive when Bucky found him and you've already established in the story where they bring Betty to the tower that he doesn't wake up quickly so feeling attacked so quickly after waking up combined with the stress from that morning of course he was going to escalate things.
So worried for all of them right now.
Yes...
Date: 2013-10-03 04:57 am (UTC)Some fights have a slow burn, while others explode suddenly. This one happened so fast that not even Phil could intervene before it got bad, although he did manage to prevent serious physical harm.
>> Bruce did kind of amazing here. <<
He really did. I think he did the best out of everyone.
>> All the screaming and threats of violence had to have set him off especially when he's in a much younger mind set, <<
Yeah, that goes right to survival-threat territory for Bruce. His father abused both Bruce and his mother, and then murdered the mother. Fortunately Bruce has come far enough that even with his history all ruffled up like this, he can keep enough grip on the present and his safe associations with the group that he didn't Hulk out.
>> but he cried about it and then sought comfort when he was ready too. As much as it hurts me to see him upset it was good to see how far he's come since the series started. <<
It's a wonderful sign of Bruce's progress that he's able to reach out like this.
>> Bucky and Tony, wow. As if they weren't all tangled up before and both needing some help now...I hope they manage to work through this with some help. <<
That's what Phil is there for, although some of the other team members help too. They won't give up on each other just because it's hard sometimes.
>> Tony's so defensive when Bucky found him <<
Tony is used to people getting pissed at him for things he doesn't fully understand. It makes him twitchy under certain circumstances.
>> and you've already established in the story where they bring Betty to the tower that he doesn't wake up quickly <<
That's called sleep inertia, and there's further discussion of it later in this story.
>> so feeling attacked so quickly after waking up combined with the stress from that morning of course he was going to escalate things. <<
Yes, exactly -- and Bucky wasn't thinking clearly either, so it was hard for him to see what was going wrong or how to stop it.
>>So worried for all of them right now.<<
It's a scary situation. They'll get through it, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-11-09 06:00 am (UTC)I'm chronically ill and subsequently disabled. I have a hard time eating, walking, and bathing sometimes. I'm also way too stubborn for my own good. I'll want to do something (even something pretty boring like clean the bathroom) and be willing to push way past my limits leaving me in pain and sick and potentially stuck in bed. But because I struggle with my self worth and place in the house now that I'm disabled (which is all on me, I'm very lucky and have a extremely supportive environment), I'm willing to push myself that far even though I know it's a bad idea.
Sometimes I need a friend or family member to get me to stop because I'm not in the right mindset to do it for myself. And that's what Phil holding onto Tony felt like to me. Like Tony wasn't in a place to be making fully informed decisions about what's best for him, so Phil stepped up. You mentioned in earlier comments, and I agree, that Tony would have gotten away from Phil if he really anted to or felt threatened. Instead he whined. I can totally relate to that, sometimes you need to kick up a fuss just so you can be reassured that it doesn't matter. To me it felt like Tony testing how committed Phil was to taking care of him. People test because they need/desire proof that there is actually something there to stop them from falling. Things can feel very unpleasant even with the knowledge that it's for the best. I think this is Tony recognizing that.
tl;dr I think Phil made the right call speaking as someone who's had similar situations happen to her because my ability for self-care wasn't high enough at the particular moment.
(I wrote all of this out on my phone and then accidentally left the page losing my comment. Like a sane person I hopped on the computer real fast a retyped it. If anything of this doesn't make sense let me know, I'm on a lot of nighttime meds at the moment. I'm happy to clarify if I'm not being clear.)
Thoughts
Date: 2013-11-09 07:17 am (UTC)Yes, I'm pleased that my audience usually manages to keep their cool, even when discussing controversial topics. I try to encourage that.
>> I've been thinking about this scene and Tony and Phil's actions a lot for the past couple of hours and I wanted to share my thoughts. <<
I love it when my writing makes people think, especially when they post about it. Yay, feedback!
>> I'm chronically ill and subsequently disabled. I have a hard time eating, walking, and bathing sometimes. <<
Bummer. I have a fair number of disabled readers here, and in some of my other series -- I write about characters with handicaps fairly often. I find it very helpful when folks share their experiences; sometimes that weaves its way into new material.
>> I'm also way too stubborn for my own good. I'll want to do something (even something pretty boring like clean the bathroom) and be willing to push way past my limits leaving me in pain and sick and potentially stuck in bed. <<
I know how it goes. My body has its quirks, some of which are pesky to work around. It sucks to push past that kind of boundary and then go splat.
>> But because I struggle with my self worth and place in the house now that I'm disabled (which is all on me, I'm very lucky and have a extremely supportive environment), I'm willing to push myself that far even though I know it's a bad idea. <<
I think that's something each person has to figure out on their own. It's your body, your mind, your life. You're the only one who can decide if the physical distress of pushing too far is worse, or if the mental distress of feeling useless is worse. Same with possible solutions, nobody else can tell what works for you or doesn't. But they can offer ideas and support.
This is a huge issue for some of the Avengers. Right now, Bucky has the worst problems with self-worth due to disability, because he's not ready to go back in the field yet so he feels useless. Tony still has it in his head that he needs to justify his right to keep living. Steve and Bruce sometimes get into a similar mindset, too, though for different reasons.
It helps that the whole teamfamily is determined to look after each other, though. They are learning everyone's strengths and weaknesses so they can compensate for those. Nobody has to do it alone.
>> Sometimes I need a friend or family member to get me to stop because I'm not in the right mindset to do it for myself. <<
Sooth. I think everyone needs that sometimes -- if you're exhausted, sick, injured, emotionally overloaded, etc. then you may not be thinking clearly. People with a chronic physical or mental condition may run into this more often.
Easy to forget with Tony because he hides it as best he can, but his chest isn't in perfect working order and he's got PTSD symptoms. The problem drinking is more obvious. His habit of running himself off the rails is very canonical.
>> And that's what Phil holding onto Tony felt like to me. Like Tony wasn't in a place to be making fully informed decisions about what's best for him, so Phil stepped up. <<
I'm glad this came through clearly for you. It may be that people interpret the scene differently based on their own experiences. "We see the world not as it is, but as we are."
>>You mentioned in earlier comments, and I agree, that Tony would have gotten away from Phil if he really wanted to or felt threatened. Instead he whined. I can totally relate to that, sometimes you need to kick up a fuss just so you can be reassured that it doesn't matter.<<
Exactly. For Tony, it's really difficult to deal with his limits. His whole identity is based on a headlong rush. Caution often feels wrong to him, so he tends to complain over it. But that's not the same thing as when something makes him feel threatened.
>> To me it felt like Tony testing how committed Phil was to taking care of him. People test because they need/desire proof that there is actually something there to stop them from falling. <<
You just put your finger on one of the main things that Tony gets out of ageplay, and he started doing it with Phil the moment they met. Phil almost the only person who stands up to Tony when Tony tries to do something stupid or dangerous. Tony needs safe limits because he didn't get that growing up. It's the emotional equivalent of leaning into a safety rail to make sure it won't budge.
>> Things can feel very unpleasant even with the knowledge that it's for the best. I think this is Tony recognizing that. <<
Very true. What Phil did was beneficial, but no fun for anybody. Later on they talk about ways to maintain safety with less discomfort.
>> tl;dr I think Phil made the right call speaking as someone who's had similar situations happen to her because my ability for self-care wasn't high enough at the particular moment. <<
Thanks. I really appreciate that perspective.
For me, I have hard and soft limits. There are some things where I rely on people around me to say when I need to stop, if it's something I have a difficult time identifying the limit myself. There are some things where I can tell, but we don't always make the same call, and people who care about me will argue over what's enough or too much. Then there are things where I require people to leave me alone, no matter how much they want to get involved -- things that are dealbreakers for me, and I've lost a few friendships because people just couldn't abide by that. People have varying ideas about what kind and how much help they are willing to give or receive, or hold back. Relationships are about finding ways to balance both people's needs.
>> (I wrote all of this out on my phone and then accidentally left the page losing my comment. Like a sane person I hopped on the computer real fast a retyped it. If anything of this doesn't make sense let me know, I'm on a lot of nighttime meds at the moment. I'm happy to clarify if I'm not being clear.) <<
It sounds clear to me. Thanks for taking the time to write all this out!
I hope you enjoy the rest of the story. There is a lot of talking later as Phil, Tony, and Bucky work through what happened and try to figure out how to prevent various aspects from recurring.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-10-06 01:08 am (UTC)Bucky is...really *traditional*, isn't he? All the 'sirs' and the way he views spanking as punishment, and the way he interacts with Bruce during meditation, they all point basically to him growing up with a very strict heirarchy in his family\childhood. It's a bit disconcerting, since my mom raised us under the ideal of children *should* listen to parents because parents want to help, not children *must* listen to parents because parents are stronger. The second always makes me twitchy; I can't imagine what having a full-grown man scream in your face that he wants to hit you would do to you. I'd probably have just let fly with a punch and bolted in Tony's shoes.
Very intense chapter, with just a few masterful strokes. I'm impressed.
Edit: I meant with *a lot of* masterful strokes. Thank you, brain, that replacement was not needed.