Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 15
Sep. 13th, 2013 12:14 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
This story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14. Skip to Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20.
"Hide and Seek" Part 15
"I am not a separate member of the Avengers. Tony and I run Iron Man together. He answers the team check-in," JARVIS said.
"Well, he doesn't know if you've taken damage unless you tell him, so we need your reply too," Phil said, glancing at Tony. "You've answered check-in yourself when Tony has been injured and too dazed to reply immediately, so I know you pay attention."
"We've gone over this a few times, and JARVIS keeps saying things like that," Tony complained to Phil. "It's just crazy. I don't know where he gets these ideas."
Probably from his father, Phil thought. "I believe JARVIS didn't say anything because he considers his own safety unimportant," Phil explained aloud.
"Why would he think that?" Tony said, throwing his hands up.
"Tony, you've had the same habit of concealing injuries until very recently. Also, remember how you speak to people," Phil said. "I've heard you talking to the other Avengers, including early on when you were downright cruel to them. I've been in your workshop and heard how you talk to JARVIS and DUM-E when nobody else can hear."
Tony and Steve had ripped into each other's most vulnerable points when they first met. After everyone had moved into the tower, Tony had still picked fights on occasion; just because he offered to share living space didn't mean he knew how to. He reduced Steve to tears and Bruce to speechless shivers. Tony provoked Clint into full-blown rants. Steve and Clint had fought back, sometimes driving Tony out of the tower for days at a time. Tony hadn't dared to push Natasha so far, but he snarked and sniped at her professional competence. Tony mocked Phil's sense of duty and loyalty. They wound up hiding from each other, until Phil tried enough teambuilding exercises that game night finally stuck. It still took time for the nasty jabs to ease up and a sense of real care to emerge, for everyone to start learning how to be a team.
Tony's interactions with his AI family were ... different. JARVIS was the most complex, because they were so many things to each other. Sometimes Tony truly treated him like a favored servant, other times like a child; yet occasionally JARVIS would push and Tony would yield as if obeying a trusted adult. In the air as Iron Man, they were as close to equals as they ever got, Tony's will sealed inside JARVIS' armor. That didn't spare JARVIS from the sharp edge of Tony's tongue.
It was worst with DUM-E and the other bots, though. Tony actually threatened them, all the time, although he never carried through with it. If you douse me again, and I'm not on fire, I will donate you. You'll be at a community college. Phil suppressed a shudder.
The names alone were telling: DUM-E, U (which was short for "Hey, You"), and Butterfingers. Even the "Just" in Just Another Really Very Intelligent System was a thoughtless diminishment.
The poor bots rarely interacted with anyone other than Tony, because the incident with Obadiah Stane had left U and Butterfingers skittish around strangers and DUM-E extra protective of Tony. They would tolerate Pepper and Rhodey but hadn't grown accustomed to the Avengers yet, and Phil hadn't pushed. Maybe I should have insisted after all, Phil thought. At least then they might have a wider range of conversations. But we all talk with JARVIS, and it doesn't seem to have helped him over that hurdle.
From the way Tony's lips moved, he was running over the same kind of dialog. "But I didn't mean it," he said faintly.
"We know that, sir," said JARVIS. "That doesn't stop it from hurting."
Tony cringed. "I'm sorry. I didn't know." His breath came shorter. "I wouldn't really send you away, any of you. Or shut you off. Or, or whatever other stupid things I said. I would not. I need you." He crushed one of the couch's throw pillows against his belly, hugging it for comfort.
"I believe that JARVIS and the bots sometimes have a hard time distinguishing what you say and mean from what you say without thought," said Phil.
"It can be ... challenging," JARVIS admitted.
"Tony, they think that this is how people speak to their loved ones," Phil said. He curled an arm around Tony's shoulders. Tony let go of the pillow to lean on Phil instead. "I think it's what you learned at home, and now it's causing the same kind of problems you grew up with."
"I am such a fuckup," Tony said, rubbing his hands over his face.
"No, you're a survivor, not a fuckup," Phil said. "This is not entirely your fault. Your parents abused and neglected you; they taught you bad family habits instead of good ones. Fixing that kind of damage takes time and work."
"Yeah, they were a little too busy getting drunk, being sociable and amazing to bother with me," Tony said.
"Another unfortunate practice that tends to get passed down the generations," Phil said quietly.
"I can handle it," Tony said.
"I've seen pro and con evidence of that," Phil said. "I do note that you tend to drink more when you're upset, which is not a good sign. Case in point: how much alcohol have you had today?"
"Not much at all," Tony said, not looking at him.
"Tony."
"Half a bottle, all right? Jeez," Tony said. He pulled away from Phil.
"Of?" Phil pressed.
"Of scotch," Tony said.
He doesn't even sound drunk. He is that habituated to the alcohol, Phil thought. He suppressed a sigh. Tony's drinking was an established issue, but so long as it had not directly impacted his performance in the team, Phil limited the pressure on Tony to change it. Nagging would only make matters worse. Phil preferred to keep the lines of communication open, in hopes that Tony would turn to him when he felt ready to tackle the problem.
When negative coping turned into a serious hazard, though, Phil felt compelled to intervene. As the team handler he had a certain level of responsibility for their safety and that of others. Phil had prevented Tony from drinking the night before. However, as soon as another stress hit -- and Tony was out of reach -- he resorted to self-medicating with alcohol. Hopefully most of that happened after he fixed the code, brought on by tense conversation.
* * *
Notes:
Speaking for someone else can undermine their own perspective. Consider different approaches and their effects. Conversely, people who can't or won't speak up for themselves may need someone to help them. Leaders may also stand up for their people. These aspects apply equally to Tony and JARVIS; they need to learn when to speak for themselves, when to speak for each other, and how to do both of those things safely. There are tips for speaking with someone who can't talk or may have limited communication. Look at the examples and think about DUM-E and Hulk especially. Also consider that some of the other Avengers have trouble identifying or communication their feelings and other important information. Learn how to speak out and stand up for yourself.
"Children Learn What They Live" is a famous poem and excellent advice about human development. Children emulate their parents, even when parents don't realize what they are modeling. Thank you, Howard Stark's A+ parenting and grandparenting.
Verbal abuse can have deep impact. Learn to recognize it. There are steps to stop someone from verbally abusing you. and to stop verbally abusing other people.
Something often overlooked in towerfic is that of the core Avengers, only Steve has any real experience living with someone else in a healthy relationship. Without the necessary skills in communal living, people tend to hurt each other. People need to respect time and space. People may live with roommates, a multigenerational family, or siblings. (Notice that Clint and Natasha, Steve and Bucky choose to share apartment floors even in the huge tower.) There are tips for being a good roomate, functioning in a multigenerational household, or living together as a couple. As you can see across this series, it takes time to develop these skills.
Tony and JARVIS have a multiple relationship because they serve different roles for each other. This is widely condemned in therapy and other professional settings, but that consensus is manufactured. It also overprivileges modern American culture; in many other places, multiple relationships are the norm or even the only option in a small community. You can read more about multiple relationships. This is not always harmful, and indeed, can be beneficial.
Consider different types of multiple relationships; in SHIELD as in the military, institutional multiplicity is unavoidable. Examine the ethics of multiple relationships; they are helpful where they aid functionality and harmful where they impair it. You can see that Tony and JARVIS are having trouble, but the solution is to fix the problems, not rip them apart. Even a sexual relationship may work, if someone needs practical healing in that area; but this is illegal in contemporary culture, so people who need that are just out of luck.
Another version is when a person has relationships with several other people, as in polyamory. The same need for diversity may apply to friendships, professional relationships, or other areas of life. Understanding how to balance different relationships will reduce jealousy and other forms of distress. You can see this within the team as Bucky relates to different members in different ways -- Tony's garage buddy, Natasha's dance partner, Clint's fellow sharpshooter -- causing shifts in the group dynamic. People have to learn how to cope with both their stacked relationships with one other person, and their spread of relationships with all the other members of the teamfamily.
A drawback of banning multiple relationships is that it shuts some people out of care. Not everyone can open up to a stranger, so they just don't get treatment. Co-counseling is one method of therapy without a therapist. Read a manual of techniques. Peer counseling is another option, with a handbook of its own. What the Avengers do together is related to these approaches, taking a more equal balance and allowing people to help each other within a previously established circle of intimacy. This expands the range of people who can solve their problems.
Limited social interaction can have negative impact on health. See a checklist of difficulty with social interactions. Neurovariant people often have trouble and need help in this area. There are ways to promote social interaction and friendships. The bots have the worst problems here because they're still hiding from most of the team. JARVIS interacts with people, but he can be pretty shy about it; so can Bruce. Tony's people skills are a jumble of great and awful. Natasha has to memorize what to do because she has little social intuition left, and that leaves out a lot of unwritten rules.
People may say things they don't mean when they are angry or drunk. Both anger and alcohol impair communication. Learn how to stop saying things you don't mean and generally stop being cruel to people.
Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can break your spirit. Warning for graphic images: This project visualizes the effects of verbal abuse. The people you love can hurt you the worst, because you care about them more than strangers. Your words and actions may hurt people; learn to tell if you're helping or hurting. There are tips on how not to let words hurt you and how to confront someone who hurt you. JARVIS demonstrates a crucial point: someone who genuinely cares about you will not want to hurt you, because they hurt when you hurt, so telling them that they have wounded your feelings usually makes them try to stop doing that.
Self-blame is a form of emotional abuse turned inward instead of outward. It can be based on character or behavior. Character blaming means believing you are a bad person. You feel like it's permanent and you can't fix it. Behavior blaming means acknowledging that you made a mistake. You still feel awful, but you can try to do better. Children are especially vulnerable to blaming. Learn to take responsibility instead of criticizing yourself. There are ways to silence your inner critic. Think of blame as a pie: some for each person involved in a mishap.
Another aspect of blame is thinking in terms of all-or-nothing. "I made a mistake" --> "I am a bad person" is an example of this distortion. Learn to replace the switch with a rheostat. Many of the Avengers do this, some habitually, others occasionally. Most people do it once in a while if they make a big mistake.
Drinking when upset is a major warning sign of alcohol abuse, and a form of self-medication. Using alcohol to relieve anger, anxiety, or other stress may seem to help, but rarely does, and often makes matters worse. Usually some other method of self-soothing will help more and harm less.
"Half a bottle of scotch" seems to be a popular amount with heavy drinkers. There are, of course, different sizes of bottles. Tony has had the equivalent of several drinks, more than is advisable, but not enough to show obvious effects due to his high tolerance. This does not mean he is really sober or sensible right now. Understand the difference between moderate and binge drinking. Characteristics of binge drinking include drinking to get drunk and consuming several drinks within a single session. "I need a drink" often translates to "I want to get drunk right now."
Alcohol abuse tends to cause trouble. There are ways to prevent alcohol-related problems if you think you might be overdoing it. Tony is starting to realize things are going wrong, but isn't ready to make big changes yet. If someone else has a drinking problem, you can help. Phil has been building trust and is moving into the communication stage, pointing out how Tony's drinking has drawbacks. Know how to identify a serious crisis involving substance abuse. (Remember that "call for help" is ideal in an emergency but may not always apply if you ARE the help -- i.e. police, medic, or superheroes -- or none is available.)
[To be continued in Part 16 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14. Skip to Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20.
"Hide and Seek" Part 15
"I am not a separate member of the Avengers. Tony and I run Iron Man together. He answers the team check-in," JARVIS said.
"Well, he doesn't know if you've taken damage unless you tell him, so we need your reply too," Phil said, glancing at Tony. "You've answered check-in yourself when Tony has been injured and too dazed to reply immediately, so I know you pay attention."
"We've gone over this a few times, and JARVIS keeps saying things like that," Tony complained to Phil. "It's just crazy. I don't know where he gets these ideas."
Probably from his father, Phil thought. "I believe JARVIS didn't say anything because he considers his own safety unimportant," Phil explained aloud.
"Why would he think that?" Tony said, throwing his hands up.
"Tony, you've had the same habit of concealing injuries until very recently. Also, remember how you speak to people," Phil said. "I've heard you talking to the other Avengers, including early on when you were downright cruel to them. I've been in your workshop and heard how you talk to JARVIS and DUM-E when nobody else can hear."
Tony and Steve had ripped into each other's most vulnerable points when they first met. After everyone had moved into the tower, Tony had still picked fights on occasion; just because he offered to share living space didn't mean he knew how to. He reduced Steve to tears and Bruce to speechless shivers. Tony provoked Clint into full-blown rants. Steve and Clint had fought back, sometimes driving Tony out of the tower for days at a time. Tony hadn't dared to push Natasha so far, but he snarked and sniped at her professional competence. Tony mocked Phil's sense of duty and loyalty. They wound up hiding from each other, until Phil tried enough teambuilding exercises that game night finally stuck. It still took time for the nasty jabs to ease up and a sense of real care to emerge, for everyone to start learning how to be a team.
Tony's interactions with his AI family were ... different. JARVIS was the most complex, because they were so many things to each other. Sometimes Tony truly treated him like a favored servant, other times like a child; yet occasionally JARVIS would push and Tony would yield as if obeying a trusted adult. In the air as Iron Man, they were as close to equals as they ever got, Tony's will sealed inside JARVIS' armor. That didn't spare JARVIS from the sharp edge of Tony's tongue.
It was worst with DUM-E and the other bots, though. Tony actually threatened them, all the time, although he never carried through with it. If you douse me again, and I'm not on fire, I will donate you. You'll be at a community college. Phil suppressed a shudder.
The names alone were telling: DUM-E, U (which was short for "Hey, You"), and Butterfingers. Even the "Just" in Just Another Really Very Intelligent System was a thoughtless diminishment.
The poor bots rarely interacted with anyone other than Tony, because the incident with Obadiah Stane had left U and Butterfingers skittish around strangers and DUM-E extra protective of Tony. They would tolerate Pepper and Rhodey but hadn't grown accustomed to the Avengers yet, and Phil hadn't pushed. Maybe I should have insisted after all, Phil thought. At least then they might have a wider range of conversations. But we all talk with JARVIS, and it doesn't seem to have helped him over that hurdle.
From the way Tony's lips moved, he was running over the same kind of dialog. "But I didn't mean it," he said faintly.
"We know that, sir," said JARVIS. "That doesn't stop it from hurting."
Tony cringed. "I'm sorry. I didn't know." His breath came shorter. "I wouldn't really send you away, any of you. Or shut you off. Or, or whatever other stupid things I said. I would not. I need you." He crushed one of the couch's throw pillows against his belly, hugging it for comfort.
"I believe that JARVIS and the bots sometimes have a hard time distinguishing what you say and mean from what you say without thought," said Phil.
"It can be ... challenging," JARVIS admitted.
"Tony, they think that this is how people speak to their loved ones," Phil said. He curled an arm around Tony's shoulders. Tony let go of the pillow to lean on Phil instead. "I think it's what you learned at home, and now it's causing the same kind of problems you grew up with."
"I am such a fuckup," Tony said, rubbing his hands over his face.
"No, you're a survivor, not a fuckup," Phil said. "This is not entirely your fault. Your parents abused and neglected you; they taught you bad family habits instead of good ones. Fixing that kind of damage takes time and work."
"Yeah, they were a little too busy getting drunk, being sociable and amazing to bother with me," Tony said.
"Another unfortunate practice that tends to get passed down the generations," Phil said quietly.
"I can handle it," Tony said.
"I've seen pro and con evidence of that," Phil said. "I do note that you tend to drink more when you're upset, which is not a good sign. Case in point: how much alcohol have you had today?"
"Not much at all," Tony said, not looking at him.
"Tony."
"Half a bottle, all right? Jeez," Tony said. He pulled away from Phil.
"Of?" Phil pressed.
"Of scotch," Tony said.
He doesn't even sound drunk. He is that habituated to the alcohol, Phil thought. He suppressed a sigh. Tony's drinking was an established issue, but so long as it had not directly impacted his performance in the team, Phil limited the pressure on Tony to change it. Nagging would only make matters worse. Phil preferred to keep the lines of communication open, in hopes that Tony would turn to him when he felt ready to tackle the problem.
When negative coping turned into a serious hazard, though, Phil felt compelled to intervene. As the team handler he had a certain level of responsibility for their safety and that of others. Phil had prevented Tony from drinking the night before. However, as soon as another stress hit -- and Tony was out of reach -- he resorted to self-medicating with alcohol. Hopefully most of that happened after he fixed the code, brought on by tense conversation.
* * *
Notes:
Speaking for someone else can undermine their own perspective. Consider different approaches and their effects. Conversely, people who can't or won't speak up for themselves may need someone to help them. Leaders may also stand up for their people. These aspects apply equally to Tony and JARVIS; they need to learn when to speak for themselves, when to speak for each other, and how to do both of those things safely. There are tips for speaking with someone who can't talk or may have limited communication. Look at the examples and think about DUM-E and Hulk especially. Also consider that some of the other Avengers have trouble identifying or communication their feelings and other important information. Learn how to speak out and stand up for yourself.
"Children Learn What They Live" is a famous poem and excellent advice about human development. Children emulate their parents, even when parents don't realize what they are modeling. Thank you, Howard Stark's A+ parenting and grandparenting.
Verbal abuse can have deep impact. Learn to recognize it. There are steps to stop someone from verbally abusing you. and to stop verbally abusing other people.
Something often overlooked in towerfic is that of the core Avengers, only Steve has any real experience living with someone else in a healthy relationship. Without the necessary skills in communal living, people tend to hurt each other. People need to respect time and space. People may live with roommates, a multigenerational family, or siblings. (Notice that Clint and Natasha, Steve and Bucky choose to share apartment floors even in the huge tower.) There are tips for being a good roomate, functioning in a multigenerational household, or living together as a couple. As you can see across this series, it takes time to develop these skills.
Tony and JARVIS have a multiple relationship because they serve different roles for each other. This is widely condemned in therapy and other professional settings, but that consensus is manufactured. It also overprivileges modern American culture; in many other places, multiple relationships are the norm or even the only option in a small community. You can read more about multiple relationships. This is not always harmful, and indeed, can be beneficial.
Consider different types of multiple relationships; in SHIELD as in the military, institutional multiplicity is unavoidable. Examine the ethics of multiple relationships; they are helpful where they aid functionality and harmful where they impair it. You can see that Tony and JARVIS are having trouble, but the solution is to fix the problems, not rip them apart. Even a sexual relationship may work, if someone needs practical healing in that area; but this is illegal in contemporary culture, so people who need that are just out of luck.
Another version is when a person has relationships with several other people, as in polyamory. The same need for diversity may apply to friendships, professional relationships, or other areas of life. Understanding how to balance different relationships will reduce jealousy and other forms of distress. You can see this within the team as Bucky relates to different members in different ways -- Tony's garage buddy, Natasha's dance partner, Clint's fellow sharpshooter -- causing shifts in the group dynamic. People have to learn how to cope with both their stacked relationships with one other person, and their spread of relationships with all the other members of the teamfamily.
A drawback of banning multiple relationships is that it shuts some people out of care. Not everyone can open up to a stranger, so they just don't get treatment. Co-counseling is one method of therapy without a therapist. Read a manual of techniques. Peer counseling is another option, with a handbook of its own. What the Avengers do together is related to these approaches, taking a more equal balance and allowing people to help each other within a previously established circle of intimacy. This expands the range of people who can solve their problems.
Limited social interaction can have negative impact on health. See a checklist of difficulty with social interactions. Neurovariant people often have trouble and need help in this area. There are ways to promote social interaction and friendships. The bots have the worst problems here because they're still hiding from most of the team. JARVIS interacts with people, but he can be pretty shy about it; so can Bruce. Tony's people skills are a jumble of great and awful. Natasha has to memorize what to do because she has little social intuition left, and that leaves out a lot of unwritten rules.
People may say things they don't mean when they are angry or drunk. Both anger and alcohol impair communication. Learn how to stop saying things you don't mean and generally stop being cruel to people.
Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can break your spirit. Warning for graphic images: This project visualizes the effects of verbal abuse. The people you love can hurt you the worst, because you care about them more than strangers. Your words and actions may hurt people; learn to tell if you're helping or hurting. There are tips on how not to let words hurt you and how to confront someone who hurt you. JARVIS demonstrates a crucial point: someone who genuinely cares about you will not want to hurt you, because they hurt when you hurt, so telling them that they have wounded your feelings usually makes them try to stop doing that.
Self-blame is a form of emotional abuse turned inward instead of outward. It can be based on character or behavior. Character blaming means believing you are a bad person. You feel like it's permanent and you can't fix it. Behavior blaming means acknowledging that you made a mistake. You still feel awful, but you can try to do better. Children are especially vulnerable to blaming. Learn to take responsibility instead of criticizing yourself. There are ways to silence your inner critic. Think of blame as a pie: some for each person involved in a mishap.
Another aspect of blame is thinking in terms of all-or-nothing. "I made a mistake" --> "I am a bad person" is an example of this distortion. Learn to replace the switch with a rheostat. Many of the Avengers do this, some habitually, others occasionally. Most people do it once in a while if they make a big mistake.
Drinking when upset is a major warning sign of alcohol abuse, and a form of self-medication. Using alcohol to relieve anger, anxiety, or other stress may seem to help, but rarely does, and often makes matters worse. Usually some other method of self-soothing will help more and harm less.
"Half a bottle of scotch" seems to be a popular amount with heavy drinkers. There are, of course, different sizes of bottles. Tony has had the equivalent of several drinks, more than is advisable, but not enough to show obvious effects due to his high tolerance. This does not mean he is really sober or sensible right now. Understand the difference between moderate and binge drinking. Characteristics of binge drinking include drinking to get drunk and consuming several drinks within a single session. "I need a drink" often translates to "I want to get drunk right now."
Alcohol abuse tends to cause trouble. There are ways to prevent alcohol-related problems if you think you might be overdoing it. Tony is starting to realize things are going wrong, but isn't ready to make big changes yet. If someone else has a drinking problem, you can help. Phil has been building trust and is moving into the communication stage, pointing out how Tony's drinking has drawbacks. Know how to identify a serious crisis involving substance abuse. (Remember that "call for help" is ideal in an emergency but may not always apply if you ARE the help -- i.e. police, medic, or superheroes -- or none is available.)
[To be continued in Part 16 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-13 05:10 pm (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-13 07:30 pm (UTC)Some of them, yes. He certainly has the speech pattern and drinking problem.
However, Tony has already lost Howard's indifference to weapons of mass destruction. Communal living has already taught Tony to care about other individuals, far more than he used to, so now it's a matter of realizing which of his habits hurt people and how to fix those.
>> It's sad, because he means well and he doesn't understand what he's actually doing and why. <<
Often true. But with personal interaction, Tony is already past the hurdle of admitting he has a problem and wanting to fix it. (He's not that far with the alcohol yet.)
>> Therapy could be useful here... <<
Therapy can be useful for some people with similar problems. Reasons why conventional therapy is unlikely to help Tony include:
* He won't go. Pepper must have been suggesting this for years. Tony's trust has been brutalized so many times that he can't trust a stranger; it's hard enough for him to trust his family. Imagine asking a survivor of sexual abuse to have sex with a therapist, and that's about how Tony would feel. He's not quite trust-repulsed, but it's difficult for him to do and he's panicked over it more than once.
* Some of Tony's problems are due to highly classified experiences. Even his mundane problems (father neglecting him) often have roots in classified territory (searching for Captain America). Without being able to talk about what's wrong, therapy usually doesn't work. That pretty much rules out civilian options, Tony doesn't like the military anymore, and SHIELD is even worse. Plus the military and SHIELD don't exactly have a glowing success rate so far.
* Some of Tony's problems are what we might call contagious; PTSD can cause collateral damage to people who spend time with the survivor. This is a serious concern for veterans, because the military therapy options are overloaded but civilian therapists sometimes can't handle ghastly descriptions of combat experience.
This is not new for SHIELD; trust issues are almost a job requirement for spies, and clearance issues are an inevitable result of shadow work. They have the same problem with mental health care as physical health care: to wit, most people who are high-quality caregivers have a low tolerance for violence and manipulation, and vice versa. So they have to settle for what they can get, which if they're lucky is adequate.
This is why the handlers are so important: people with a strong nurturing instinct, but not as directly opposed in their skill set as medic/spy. So Phil has a large array of solutions that can be applied when his assets start having trouble coping. He got Clint and Natasha functional, after all. The dearth of really good therapists in SHIELD is why Phil was so keen on enticing Dr. Leonard Samson to join or at least consult.
When the conventional problem-solving approach is not feasible, you look for some other route to the end goal. That's what the Avengers are doing. Some branches of mental health care have actually evolved out of things like this where people had to solve their own or each other's problems because nothing official suited their needs.
>> And poor bots and JARVIS too, they're like Tony's children and they don't know better... <<
Yes. JARVIS has the advantage of much wider experience; really, wider even than Tony, because he can get anything that's online. But it's almost all book-learning. JARVIS learns very well in that mode, but some skills really require practical experience to develop. Now that he's got regular access to people other than Tony, who know that he's a person, JARVIS can patch a lot of the gaps in his experience. He's a learning system; he'll get the hang of it.
It's harder for the bots. They're simpler, and they've been traumatized enough to resist interacting with anyone other than Tony. And you can't really call a shrink for a robot. So Tony will have to do most of the work of cleaning up the mess he's made of their self-image and communication skills. Beyond that, the other Avengers may think of ways to coax the bots into accepting more company.
>>I wonder to what extent Phil can help.<<
He's already helped a LOT. If you look back over the series, you can see how problems arise, get solved or at least ameliorated, and then deeper issues emerge as the characters work their way through the layers of damage. We started out with a bunch of emotionally mangled superheroes right after the Battle of New York. The first thing Phil did was coax them out of the corners of the tower where they were all hiding from each other. He created a safe space for them to express their feelings and interact with each other. That got them out of crisis mode and merged them into a real team.
Since then: Steve and Tony have negotiated the delicate issue of discussing Howard. Bruce and Betty have gotten back together. Tony has learned to seek comfort at least sometimes for outside upsets. The team has learned enough caregiving to support Phil when he needs it. Bruce and Clint have become touch-buddies. Hulk has discovered positive feelings and experiences. Bruce has begun to acknowledge that Hulk is more than just a ragemonster. Natasha is reconstructing the humanity that the Red Room tried to strip out of her. Everyone has pulled together to help Bucky recover from what happened to him. Phil has guided, facilitated, or inspired much of that.
>> Tony's issues are severe, and not easily overcome. <<
They certainly aren't easily overcome. Looking at the PTSD scale, I think they're somewhere between moderate and severe. Tony's distress level is variable, sometimes low, sometimes quite high. There are times when he has trouble dismissing the memories, but that comes and goes in phases. The real key is disruption; his fault tolerance is so damn high that he can keep performing while pretty fucked up on alcohol or intrusive ideation or enemy action. So there has been only a little interference with his ability to perform everyday activities and his jobs.
What we've got here in this story is the point where the new demands on Tony's energy and interpersonal skills have exceeded his ability to adapt. Phil managed the initial crisis and is now thinking about how to raise Tony's capacity so as to handle teamfamily life without boiling over. It may not be possible to fix everything, but they should be able to keep the issues from rising past the compensation threshold.
>> Thanks for your always thought provoking chapters! <<
I'm happy to hear that.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-13 05:25 pm (UTC)He needs a new acronym explain. I sense a moment for Steve to do a drawing.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-16 08:46 am (UTC)Yes, he is. The more Tony thinks about his present and past actions, though, the more it's going to hurt. Ouchies ahead on that trip, and not just in this story.
>> I don't think Howard and Maria ever did, and for Howard I'd suspect his tape was pretty ingrained since he was what, in his 60s when he had Tony? <<
Far as I know, they never got to that. Howard was a dead man walking, in spirit if not in flesh. That's something that Tony, Steve, and Bucky are all fumbling through attempts to process.
>> Is there a canon 'emanation' date for JARVIS? <<
Not that I know of. All I've seen is reference to Tony creating DUM-E when he was 17. A discussing of that appears soon in this story.
>> He needs a new acronym explain. <<
I don't think JARVIS would go for that, even though it wouldn't change his call name. Names are vital to all digital persons in a way that they aren't for most biopersons (except for such as shamans and wizards) because you have to name a file in order to save it. Yes, files can be renamed, but ... it tends to be as bizarre for them as the idea of a human lopping off an arm and replacing it with a new one on purpose.
Plus the psychological aspects: it's a piece of his past, something that Tony gave him, and a touchstone akin to the way Bucky still uses "runt" as a nickname for Steve.
>> I sense a moment for Steve to do a drawing. <<
I do have an idea for Steve painting JARVIS.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-16 11:42 am (UTC)Well, the explain change might not even be to the J, but to Tony's set up for the meat. Or he could delay to explain the acronym until further in.
I figure 'runt' was a bit of "men are honest about facts' and 'what is made fun of has less power'. Now it's rather like 'Tiny' and 'Curly', with just a bit more nostalgia. In my own head canon I think Bucky might have been a touch younger than Steve and then eased into 'older brother' functions. Bucky strikes me as the sort that might have looked like a man young. Steve may have gone into puberty early to make him that short, since that often happens in dearth, like a flower blooming on a stunted plant trying to leave seeds before drought ends it.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-16 09:02 pm (UTC)As long as Howard kept looking, he could keep hoping that he could get Steve back. But then it never let him grieve the loss. He got stuck in the Denial stage, forever. He wasn't wrong -- Steve was alive and waiting to be found -- but Howard did a lot of damage to himself and other people by not moving on.
Echoes of Rhodey searching for Tony in Afghanistan, long after everyone else gave up.
>> until he found the Tesseract at which point it seems to become outright obsession. Unless him being gone served the Tesseract's purposes. <<
Based on the limited observations of canon, the Tesseract seems to be:
* an object of immense power
* a kind of lens
* easy to get lost in.
Take someone who already has serious mental injuries and an innate predisposition to high-risk behavior, and put him in close proximity to a cosmic mirror-maze. Yeah, that's not going to end well.
>> Well, the explain change might not even be to the J, but to Tony's set up for the meat. Or he could delay to explain the acronym until further in. <<
Possibly so.
>> I figure 'runt' was a bit of "men are honest about facts' and 'what is made fun of has less power'. <<
That makes sense.
>> Now it's rather like 'Tiny' and 'Curly', with just a bit more nostalgia.<<
Agreed.
>> In my own head canon I think Bucky might have been a touch younger than Steve and then eased into 'older brother' functions. Bucky strikes me as the sort that might have looked like a man young. Steve may have gone into puberty early to make him that short, since that often happens in dearth, like a flower blooming on a stunted plant trying to leave seeds before drought ends it. <<
I tend to think of Bucky as slightly older. However, I do write him as an early bloomer -- he got his height pretty young, and Steve was tiny in comparison. So that helped make Bucky seem older, plus he took on a protector/provider role. Hence the problems with parentification. I think this also plays into how Steve behaves around people who are smaller and weaker than himself (which is almost everyone), because Bucky gave him the imprint for that context. You take care of people.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-17 11:34 am (UTC)No, I think denial is right up there with all Howard's other traits-annoying authority, risk taking. Magnifying it wasn't going to help him.
I think Rhodey might get that a pissed off Tony (and, the Ten Rings shooting up the convoy with Stark weapons... iron-clad pissed) can do much anything he means to do. Including survive. The Reaper is an authority figure, it pisses Tony off when it comes for his.
That, getting all his 'taking care of Steve' mirrored right back at him; he probably balked once and without much bite gotten "just doing for you what you did for me". Yeah, that, the brain-jacking and whatever tesseract-lite is in the arm...
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-17 07:09 pm (UTC)It may not just be the Tesseract. He and Dr. Erskine were both at ground zero for Project Rebirth. To get the main effect, you have to combine both halves perfectly. But that doesn't mean the halves are inert until combined ... or that the shielding was perfect.
If we posit the Vita-Rays as falling within the same class of plasticity-enhancing energy as the Tesseract and Loki's staff, well, that was Howard's half of the project. Marie Curie died of cancer because nobody knew about radiation shielding when they first started working with radioactive substances. So Howard could've gotten very subtle bumps from his own work, before he ever got involved with the Tesseract itself. Like going from beer to vodka.
>>I think Rhodey might get that a pissed off Tony (and, the Ten Rings shooting up the convoy with Stark weapons... iron-clad pissed) can do much anything he means to do. Including survive.<<
Yes, that's true. *ponder* Rhodey probably also knew more about Tony's experience surviving prior attempts.
>>The Reaper is an authority figure, it pisses Tony off when it comes for his.<<
I actually know of a veteran who responded to Death's appearance by screaming obscenities and death threats. Death very sensibly shut the door and walked away, opting to wait until the fellow was ready to depart.
Yep, I could see Tony doing that. Clearly. "If you so much as sneeze in my direction I will fuck you up. I will invent immortality and put you right out of business. But hey, stick around a few weeks, let me do my thing, and Tony Stark will show you a real good time. So what do you say: Deal?"
>> That, getting all his 'taking care of Steve' mirrored right back at him; he probably balked once and without much bite gotten "just doing for you what you did for me". Yeah, that, the brain-jacking and whatever tesseract-lite is in the arm... <<
Bucky is half-proud and half-disconcerted by the role reversal. He and Steve had just started to adapt their relationship after Project Rebirth when they got split up. So they have to finish doing that now, with the auxiliary power source making it harder. But both of them are good guys at heart, and they're actually happiest in the middle of a command structure: someone else picking the missions so they don't have to do the slog work of finding what needs done, but then they're in charge on the field. So it's not too much of a stretch to trade off who's giving or taking orders.
The challenging part is the personal stuff. It's easier for Steve because he always had the drive to take care of other people, and he has good memories of Bucky taking care of him. It's harder for Bucky to let someone take care of him because it feels like going backwards. He hasn't quite connected the fact that what feels good to him, feels just as good to any other person with nurturing instincts, so that accepting care is a way of making someone else happy. The background helps, though. Steve isn't going to give up taking care of Bucky just because it's a little uncomfortable for Bucky to get used to while he's recovering from captivity and needs some extra support. And Bucky settled with the team a lot better than he did with SHIELD medical.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-18 04:53 am (UTC)Oh, blighters. Though, were there Vita-rays for Schmidt? That would be rather a mess, Steve the one that's just right and the case to either side...
Not even sure the Reaper would come looking for Tony while he was ambulatory. He's been a real mechanized harvester for years.
Yeah, they've got overdue "runt, what did you get up to after I came here?"
Well, the team aren't seeing a commodity, unlike certain SHIELD personnel. (Sends Jarod to apply a very realistic 'temp tattoo' of flayed arm to the yahoo that skinned Bucky's arm like that.) Steve's never shirked because something is unpleasant "I came for you then and I'm here for you now. This is your sandwich."
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-18 06:41 am (UTC)It wasn't mentioned, just that he got an earlier version of the formula that wasn't ready yet (and he wasn't the right kind of person anyhow). But it's possible, given the reference to "burning," which is more often used in reference to radiation than to chemicals. Like aiming light through a lens; the formula provides the method and the radiation provides the energy.
>> Not even sure the Reaper would come looking for Tony while he was ambulatory. He's been a real mechanized harvester for years. <<
True, but it makes an amusing story.
>> Yeah, they've got overdue "runt, what did you get up to after I came here?" <<
Bucky has learned a little of that, and they're gradually sharing more.
>> Well, the team aren't seeing a commodity, unlike certain SHIELD personnel. <<
Precisely. Treating Bucky as a person makes all the difference in the world. Which is actually true of the other Avengers too.
>> (Sends Jarod to apply a very realistic 'temp tattoo' of flayed arm to the yahoo that skinned Bucky's arm like that.) <<
There are a bunch of people in SHIELD who are liable to get a good smackdown if they give any of the Avengers the least little excuse.
>> Steve's never shirked because something is unpleasant "I came for you then and I'm here for you now. This is your sandwich." <<
*chuckle* Oh yes. Steve has been doing a lot of that. He's pretty good at low-key caretaking, which is exactly the right tone for most of his teamfamily. You're right on the mark with the sandwich, even -- remember the personal meatloaves?
There will be more of this, though, in terms of Steve helping Bucky and how well Bucky deals with it (or not).
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-02 01:34 am (UTC)I've... I've SEEN this, in a fic somewhere... I'll see if I can track it down, I remember an uncannily vivid description, not visual art but remarkable.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-04-02 01:52 am (UTC)My Steve is using paint, but some of the imagery is allegorical. Steve has a way of capturing what is, not merely what is visible.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2022-06-28 08:02 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2022-06-29 02:03 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-13 08:29 pm (UTC)-Rockafella Saint
Thank you!
Date: 2013-09-16 07:44 am (UTC)I'm glad you're so excited.
>> And then I start reading and as usual you make me want to cry and wrap all of them up in my arms and cuddle them. ;_; <<
Well, yes, that's the goal of hurt/comfort storytelling. Success! They need all the cuddles they will accept.
>> Poor JARVIS, poor little bots, poor Tony and PhilandBruceandBuckyandClintandSteaveandNatasha! <<
*chuckle* Yeah, pretty much.
>> Please update soon, I'm all a tremble worrying! <<
This story customarily updates on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-09-13 11:34 pm (UTC)Tony could be in a rough spot here... having had addiction issues, it can be terrifying when your life improves enough that you have a reduced need to use your addiction to handle day-to-day life, because it becomes more and more obvious that it's something you crave in itself. You can spend a lot of time indulging in your addiction to drown out the fear of your addiction if you don't decide to change things. Or if you have a particularly nasty self-destructive instinct, you can end up manufacturing bad shit in your life so that your addictive behaviors make sense as a coping mechanism rather than a problem in themselves again. I don't know to what extent Tony is addicted rather than "just" abusing alcohol here, but those "lull" periods can be unexpectedly awful and I wonder if that's a bit of what he's experiencing right now.
Thoughts
Date: 2013-09-16 06:35 pm (UTC)They could. I have some ideas in that direction.
>> The ageplay could be a good situation to make that happen, maybe--the child "headspace" is probably more similar to the way that they think than adults and I could imagine that making them feel safer. <<
I suspect that the bots may not have the mental awareness to understand something that complex. On the other hoof, the Avengers seem to be pretty flexible about freeform ageplay, shifting down or up, partially or wholly, in response to circumstances. They have the skills for relating in a childlike manner and for dealing with a childlike personality. So there's potential.
>> I wonder if JARVIS could help--you said in a comment here that you can't call in a therapist for a robot, but he's probably got a similar mind to them in a lot of ways because Tony programmed all of them, <<
JARVIS probably could help. I suspect that he 'translates' for the bots as needed.
>> and I imagine he's going to be learning a lot of therapy skills here soon. <<
Yes. JARVIS has previously read all kinds of stuff in attempt to help Tony, but without anyone to guide his choices, it's been pretty much trial and error. Mostly error. Now that they have Phil to help pinpoint what's going wrong and how to fix it, JARVIS can research in areas that should give a much higher "energy return on energy investment." He's a learning system; this is stuff he can figure out. It's just going to be challenging for a while as JARVIS works through some unfamiliar territory. There are some conversations about this with Phil.
>>Tony could be in a rough spot here...<<
Yes, he is. Thank you for this thoughtful analysis. You've picked up on a lot that I've been hinting.
>> having had addiction issues, it can be terrifying when your life improves enough that you have a reduced need to use your addiction to handle day-to-day life, because it becomes more and more obvious that it's something you crave in itself. <<
That's one reason, and it plays into why Tony is actually drinking less now than he used to. He doesn't go around with a glass or a bottle in his hand every few scenes the way he did in canon. He also doesn't go to as many society events, because he has a home life that -- while often confusing -- is more enjoyable. But he still uses alcohol as a coping method when upset, and a celebration method when happy, and so forth. It's tapered off a bit, enough to notice, and enough to make it more obvious when he does drink or talk about wanting a drink.
Another aspect is that Tony's life has conditioned him not to trust safety or happiness. If he feels good, his subconscious starts to worry: "Oh shit, happiness means life about to light itself on fire again." He's constantly waiting for the other penny to drop. It's much like the way he barely knows how to accept comfort from another person; he doesn't have experience with maintaining comfort as a baseline state. Which is the same problem Bruce has, albeit in a slightly different flavor.
>> You can spend a lot of time indulging in your addiction to drown out the fear of your addiction if you don't decide to change things. <<
That's possible.
>> Or if you have a particularly nasty self-destructive instinct, you can end up manufacturing bad shit in your life so that your addictive behaviors make sense as a coping mechanism rather than a problem in themselves again. <<
I think this is more Tony's style. He does use alcohol as an escape method, but not as much as some people. He is extremely prone to self-destructive behavior of various kinds and to self-sabotage of his own efforts. It's likely to take the form of trying to improve, and then when something external goes wrong, there's only so far he can cope before melting down.
>> I don't know to what extent Tony is addicted rather than "just" abusing alcohol here, <<
Canon is nonspecific on this topic, and therefore I have left it that way. I couldn't see a clear indication either direction, and didn't have a compelling story need for one so it can stay there. My best guess is that he's borderline. There's a tendency for social drinking to become problem drinking to become alcoholism, for people with a predisposition and/or enough circumstantial pressure to maintain the slide.
Tony is obviously a high-functioning drunk. He can consume a great deal of alcohol before incapacitating himself. That's one common feature of people with the predisposition: it takes very little to affect their mood and judgment, but a lot to get them drunk. Part of that tolerance is probably innate, and part acquired. Tony can still work while drunk or hungover; he's just so damn good that he has that kind of fault tolerance to throw away. And he's used to spending much of his time drunk or hungover anyway. The beginning of Iron Man 2 had him hugging a toilet moments before flying down to expo presentation, though I think part of that may have wound up in the extra features.
Cost, a leading issue for most people with alcohol problems, isn't remotely a concern for Tony. Legal problems are barely more so. He can handwave most practical issues.
He can't handwave interpersonal ones, not completely. The Avengers are less willing to let him wreck himself, and more able to stop him, than Pepper and Rhodey have been. Also his teammates are with Tony most of the time, so he's more aware of how his behavior hurts them, and he's gotten more able to feel remorse for hurting people he cares about. This is painful territory.
So there hasn't been much impact on things Tony really cares about because of his drinking. Until now.
This makes me suspect that he's somewhere in the gray area between problem drinking and alcoholism. His habit clearly does cause problems. It's associated with bad signs like drinking for comfort. But he hasn't done the level of physical and social damage that tends to come with complete addiction. He is probably not 100% sober all that often, but it's possible to maintain a low level of saturation without producing a strong dependence. So if the physical addiction is present, I think it's at the low end of that range. His psychological dependence, of course, is pretty strong.
>> but those "lull" periods can be unexpectedly awful and I wonder if that's a bit of what he's experiencing right now. <<
Yes, exactly.
That's another issue in drinking: what happens when you cut back naturally, or choose to try cutting back. Some people can do that and back themselves out of trouble. Others get a little way and then misfire. What typically causes the problem is that people use alcohol as a coping mechanism because they don't have anything better, so when things go wrong, it's hard to resist the slide. You can't just "stop drinking." You have to replace drinking with something else that fulfills the same functions. That's another reason why Phil wants Tony to learn new coping skills.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-07-08 11:54 pm (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2014-07-09 02:48 am (UTC)Behold the clue, for Pepper has it not.
(no subject)
Date: 2014-02-03 03:10 am (UTC)Tony need a hug too. I'm glad he's realizing that how he talks to people/JARVIS/his bots matters and that his language isn't always kind. I'm glad Phil was there to not only help point this out, but to not let him fall into the 'I'm a fuck-up' mindset. That is a lot of alcohol. Do you plan to eventually tackle Tony's alcohol problem?